[identity profile] asth77.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] omonatheydid

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One day, my Canadian friend came home after a 14 hour work day to find his Korean Mother-in-law playing with his infant son’s penis. He blew up at his Mother-in-law. Neither his wife nor his live in Korean family members understood why he was so upset. To my friend, any kind of penile touching except using a wipe or wash cloth to clean the area when necessary was tantamount to sexual abuse. Had his MIL been doing this the whole time? Did his wife harbour some sexual trauma in her past that she had not divulged to him after being raised in such a family? Was his son safe at home? He was suddenly terrified. On the other hand, to his Korean family it was just a bit of light gochu nudging by a doting grandmother excited about the existence of her first grandson. Nobody thinks of squeezing a cheek or oooing over a tiny fingertip or admiring the mop of hair. Why should the baby’s penis be the only body part off limits…especially when it signified his all important boyness? Needless to say, the outburst that followed observing this practise didn’t help to bridge the culture gap.



We’ve all heard again and again that the key to a successful marriage is communication. Before you ever get married you are supposed to talk about goals and finances and expectations and roles and boundaries and all that good stuff. And these days many people have lived together before marriage or have spent enough time playing some semblance of house that they’ve seen the potential issues ahead of time and fight/work them out before the ceremony is completed and marriage papers signed. But parenthood is a very different thing. There’s very little that can prepare you for the changes a baby brings to your life, and as little ones change so fast, there’s a constant stream of issues to deal with that were not previously necessary to think about even a few weeks before. So yes, you should probably talk about how to discipline your kids or vaguely outline your parenting philosophies pre-baby, but in all honesty, you won’t really know how interacting with this tiny being is going to go until you personally experience it’s individual personality, quirks, and the reality of parenting.

But then throw in parents raised in different cultures and you have an added bit of fun. Before seeing your MIL poking your son’s penis, how would you know that you even needed to have a conversation about the appropriateness of said action? How do you begin communicating about a difference of opinion if you don’t even know such a practise exists before you are confronted with it? And when you are surprised so suddenly by something you feel you should abhor or should just be common sense to everyone else because it is common sense to you, how do you react reasonably and rationally to avoid a massive family dispute?

Between forums and friends, I’ve been able to learn about some cultural differences and deal with them before we’ve encountered them. Different beliefs in the essential coldness of babies or postpartum practises for mothers have been on my radar for some time, and while I’ve had problems with strangers or people on the periphery of my life when it comes to these issues, Mr. Lee and I have negotiated these differences pretty easily because we knew about them and discussed them before they became an issue. I also remember one girl I used to work with telling me that the final nail in the coffin to her American mother’s desire to raise her children in Korea with her Korean husband, came when my co worker’s teacher cut off her hair in class. Since then I’ve also heard about in laws feeling no qualms about shaving or cutting their grandchildrens’ hair without getting permission from the parents first. Within a Korean context, the teacher of the 1980s or the in laws of the present day have a position of power and authority that is somewhat different from a Western concept. And boundaries about the body and who gets to make decisions about the child’s body are a little bit different here. I was amused today when a friend I’ve known for years asked if it was okay to take a picture of my child. I’m so used to strangers feeling Dragon is public property that I forgot that some people and even some legal systems have different ideas about babies. 

But back to the head shaving, knowing this practise existed, I was able to formulate an opinion about infant head shaving and approach the issue rationally with Mr. Lee before anyone shaved him without my permission. And I had years to think about baby penis touching before I ever saw it done myself and had already come to a few conclusions about under what circumstances it might be tolerable. Pre emptive discussions about cultural differences and knowing about these differences has been key to negotiating cultural differences, but the problem is…you don’t always know.

Early in my years here, I had noticed toddlers running around the 24 hr Home Plus past midnight or had experienced friends keeping their kids out way past my idea of a child’s bedtime when we were out at restaurant-bar type places. I had also worked at a place where 12 year olds were studying until 10 pm and seen job ads for (illegal but still publicly posting) hagwans which ran until 1 or 2 am. And that’s not to mention the adult students who would commute 4 hours a day, starting out at 4 am, working all day, taking an English class til 10pm, arriving home at midnight, and getting up at 4 the next morning to start the daily grind. I did know that there were different concepts of sleep in Korea.

But I thought it was common sense that you don’t wake a sleeping baby. Take that baby out to the fried chicken joint at 11 pm and have her fall asleep in your arms. Have your child running around the meat aisle at all hours of the night if he’s awake. Keep your middle school student up studying til all hours of the night to get the test results needed to get into a good high school. But why in the world would you wake an already sleeping infant? And in my experience pre-100 days, the baby was considered by Koreans around us as a fragile being. And doesn’t something so fragile need something as important as sleep?

So anyway, Dragon doesn’t always do well in his car seat. But on this one day he did! And he fell asleep! And he stayed asleep between the car and the elevator and the building! And then the door opened and it was all this yelling – ‘Dragon! Dragon! Dragon!’ along with poking, prodding, blanket stealing, cheek pinching. The works. I tried to shush. I tried to ask for quiet for just.a.few.more.minutes. The baby was SLEEPING. Yes I KNOW you want to see him, and I’m GLAD you want to see him, and you WILL get to hold him when he wakes up. And I know you are older and the baby is younger, and the baby should learn nice Confucian values early…but does that need to extend to a sleeping baby? Apparently it does. Over and over again. And according to the experiences of many other Westerners I’ve talked to, they have had equally aggravating experiences between their concept of sleep and babies and Korean family/friends’ concept of sleep. It seems like such a small thing, but when you have a child with as many sleep issues as Dragon, you really really really value the peace that comes with the baby falling asleep by himself and staying asleep for longer than 5 minutes.

Anyway, I regretably reacted badly because it never occurred to me that not everyone shared my cultural assumption in the sacredness of a sleeping baby. And I regret that I didn’t keep my temper because in the grand scheme of things, it really was a very small thing done without bad intentions. But I wasn’t expecting it. And so I flipped out not so much in anger but in shock.

There are areas now that we realise are cultural chasms. Baby eating is one where my ideas are often shocking to Koreans - breast milk, formula, how much, how often, until when, solids, which solids, when, what order, water, barley tea…these are areas where we have some differences of opinion and differences in cultural expectations. So we now try to start those conversations with a ‘in your culture….what do you do about this?’ and only then, after learning about the other’s opinion do we give our individual or cultural view. It helps to hear the other person out first before you go asserting your ideas. But of course…we already know that food is going to be a flash point and proceed accordingly. I’m sure there are many more surprises in intercultural parenting to come along in the next few years….





Written by msleetobe who nicely accepted it to be posted here if hopefully the mods are ok with this.

wtf @ Korean Mother In Law playing with a baby's penis.....
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Date: 2012-07-22 05:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theperfect4.livejournal.com
just here to say Leo is the cutest ever and i want my son to look like him.

Date: 2012-07-23 03:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pinky-fairy10.livejournal.com
it was actually Leo that led me to open this post. haha

Date: 2012-07-22 05:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 921227.livejournal.com
The only thing I really got from this was that she named her kid Dragon....

Date: 2012-07-22 06:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-perfect-shade.livejournal.com
I know dragon is "Yong", that's probably part of the kid's name.

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Date: 2012-07-22 05:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] laeryn.livejournal.com
But why would you play with a baby's penis? I am kinda shocked, tbh.

Date: 2012-07-22 06:52 pm (UTC)

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Date: 2012-07-22 05:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yuki-yang.livejournal.com
I wish this article was better written.
Such...awful writing
Edited Date: 2012-07-22 05:59 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-07-22 07:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eggyplant.livejournal.com
thank god I wasn't the only one who thought this as well.

It's too bad, cuz it's an interesting topic to discuss.

Date: 2012-07-22 06:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] iruka92.livejournal.com
good lord.. /smh

Date: 2012-07-22 06:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvey.livejournal.com
Cultural differences, even down to the smallest things are quite interesting....what is even more is our reaction to something out of our realm of experiences. We think first about "how things should be", due to our own personal experiences and forget that someone else/some other culture has a different take because of their own experience.

Date: 2012-07-22 07:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thebluemonk.livejournal.com
yeah i was thinking this while... trying to read this.

problem with "cultural negotiation" is that it often boils down into the ostracization of the "other" in favor of a more acceptable, favored norm held by the person or party in power, and then that other turns into a negative, backward culture ie 'traditional'

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Date: 2012-07-22 06:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sinfulcherries.livejournal.com
Really, penis poking??? Being half Chinese and half Korean, I was pretty sure that wasn't okay in any culture.... Along with the screaming and waking up the baby in the car. The whole thing just made me think that the family had some issues.

Date: 2012-07-22 06:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] charisma2.livejournal.com
That's what I got from the article as well.

Date: 2012-07-22 06:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kyuuhyun.livejournal.com
At the end of the article I still don't understand why she was touching that boys penis

Date: 2012-07-22 06:44 pm (UTC)

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Date: 2012-07-22 06:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlie-ly.livejournal.com
the grandma playing with baby penis =___=' I've seen it many times too. It's nothing scandalous in Asia but i still feel weird. Thanks god they don't do that to baby girls.

Date: 2012-07-23 10:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slatslatslats.livejournal.com
Why is it worse doing it to babies with vaginas than babies with penises?

Date: 2012-07-22 06:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] umbrella-smile.livejournal.com
I almost had to stop after the first paragraph good god...

Date: 2012-07-22 06:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] asnindie.livejournal.com
Err okay that was just weird. Why was she playing with it, does she like boys so much? Jesus this isn't the third century anymore.

Date: 2012-07-22 07:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nemono5.livejournal.com
It's not like she was touching it sexually. It's just a baby, Koreans don't view it as anything sexual, especially for boys. I don't know if it's really a thing anymore, but little toddler boys running around naked was no biggie back in the day.

Go watch Dragon Ball, Goku runs around naked and they don't even try to hide his dingaling and no one cares. That's Japan, but this cultural aspect carries over to Korea.

imo, the dude is just overreacting and he has the typical western mindset where everything has a sexual connotation.

Date: 2012-07-22 07:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] skrillex.livejournal.com
yeah but there's a difference between letting a kid run around naked and playing with its dick

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Date: 2012-07-22 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] skrillex.livejournal.com
my Canadian friend came home after a 14 hour work day to find his Korean Mother-in-law playing with his infant son’s penis.

i stopped reading I AM TERRIFIED AS TO WHAT COMES AFTER THIS OLJ

Date: 2012-07-22 08:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] annhh.livejournal.com
lol me too

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Date: 2012-07-22 07:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] urbandrive.livejournal.com
The penis-touching may be shocking to a lot of us now but back in the day (in Korea) it wasn't, and even now it's not viewed in such a negative way. I know of many grandparents/parents who do that, although I don't know the actual reason why. It is a cultural thing though. It's strange to me because I was raised in America and even though I'm Korean and my parents are Korean, I'm used to the more "American" way of interacting with children, I guess you could say. But that doesn't mean that the American way is right or the Korean way is wrong. It's a big cultural difference that Westerners are not comfortable with. It's like going into a bathhouse in Korea and sharing a tub with ten other men or women and having someone help you scrub your body or something. Strange to us, but normal for them.
Edited Date: 2012-07-22 07:19 pm (UTC)
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Date: 2012-07-22 07:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hisjulliet.livejournal.com
If it's in the culture(which I highly doubt) why would anyone even want to play with a baby's penus? What type of feeling do they get out of it? I just find this whole article unsettling...

Date: 2012-07-22 09:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] asnindie.livejournal.com
I'm not sure but Asians love that a son is born. So maybe she's so happy she's playing with the son's peepee which is just sick and creepy tbh, mostly because they're literally idolising a penis which is wrong.

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Date: 2012-07-22 09:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] im-an-aaangel.livejournal.com
It's just a personal blog post the OP took from here: http://msleetobe.wordpress.com

Date: 2012-07-22 08:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dori-liv.livejournal.com
That kid is really cute.
This is an interedting topic.

Date: 2012-07-22 08:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] julietislimited.livejournal.com
I would probably go ape shit if I walked in on someone poking my child in his private zone. Absolutely ape shit. I mean I do understand different cultures but its just not something I could handle.

Date: 2012-07-22 08:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] minyquai.livejournal.com
Wow okay interesting o_O
Especially the fact that sometimes we wouldn't even know how to approach certain cultural differences because we didn't even expect them to exist.
Like, why the fuck would you wake a sleeping baby? I'd just think it's the respective parents that are terribly selfish, not that it's a cultural thing.

Still wtf'ing@the penis play. Just. Why.

Date: 2012-07-22 09:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shining-lore.livejournal.com
Image (http://imgur.com/xUwYm)
sorry, I had to

Date: 2012-07-23 12:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] liferule91.livejournal.com
people do it to babies in my culture all the times, although i'll say this, you wouldn't catch a man doing this.

idk i don't find it as shocking as some of you guys do but that's because i don't know the context. If she just randomly took off the baby's diaper to play with it then yeah it's creepy, but if she was changing his nappy and started to play/tease the baby by using his penis(yeah i know it sounds weird) then she is in the clear.

Edited Date: 2012-07-23 12:05 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-07-23 02:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sugarlatte.livejournal.com
This. I have family members who've done this to babies, but it's not like they decided to touch his genitals, stripped him and got started. It's usually when changing the baby, bathing the baby, etc.

Date: 2012-07-23 12:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jaerotic.livejournal.com
lol and smh at this post at the same time. at the majority of the comments, actually.
Edited Date: 2012-07-23 12:16 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-07-23 12:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] miki-831.livejournal.com
Korean people just need to sleep more. Sleeping lets you re-cooperate, process information, and rest your body. Go to sleep and you'll stop freaking out so much.

Date: 2012-07-23 01:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seung-is-my-ho.livejournal.com
lol seriously.

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Date: 2012-07-23 12:29 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-07-23 12:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ideservestars.livejournal.com
just saying, but my aunt is Turkish/raised in Germany/now lives in the US. her son is about 17 months old and she does what the MIL was doing, when he was really tiny she'd sings song about his peepee and play with it when she was changing him. its not sexual, its just a different culture.

Date: 2012-07-23 02:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] funkaliciousss.livejournal.com
ikr.. not everything has to have a sexual connotation to it.

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