'Why I never want babies'
2018-08-19 01:04 amBy Simon Maybin
BBC World Service, Seoul

An increasing number of South Korean women are choosing not to marry, not to have children, and not even to have relationships with men. With the lowest fertility rate in the world, the country's population will start shrinking unless something changes.
"I have no plans to have children, ever," says 24-year-old Jang Yun-hwa, as we chat in a hipsterish cafe in the middle of Seoul.
"I don't want the physical pain of childbirth. And it would be detrimental to my career."
Like many young adults in South Korea's hyper-competitive job market, Yun-hwa, a web comic artist, has worked hard to get where she is and isn't ready to let all that hard graft go to waste.
"Rather than be part of a family, I'd like to be independent and live alone and achieve my dreams," she says.
Yun-hwa isn't the only young Korean woman who sees career and family as mutually exclusive.
There are laws designed to prevent women being discriminated against for getting pregnant, or for just being of an age where that's a possibility - but in practice, unions say, they're not enforced.
BBC World Service, Seoul

An increasing number of South Korean women are choosing not to marry, not to have children, and not even to have relationships with men. With the lowest fertility rate in the world, the country's population will start shrinking unless something changes.
"I have no plans to have children, ever," says 24-year-old Jang Yun-hwa, as we chat in a hipsterish cafe in the middle of Seoul.
"I don't want the physical pain of childbirth. And it would be detrimental to my career."
Like many young adults in South Korea's hyper-competitive job market, Yun-hwa, a web comic artist, has worked hard to get where she is and isn't ready to let all that hard graft go to waste.
"Rather than be part of a family, I'd like to be independent and live alone and achieve my dreams," she says.
Yun-hwa isn't the only young Korean woman who sees career and family as mutually exclusive.
There are laws designed to prevent women being discriminated against for getting pregnant, or for just being of an age where that's a possibility - but in practice, unions say, they're not enforced.
The story of Choi Moon-jeong, who lives in one of Seoul's western suburbs, is a powerful illustration of the problem. When she told her boss she was expecting a child, she was shocked by his reaction.

Choi Moon-jeong today
"My boss said, 'Once you have a child your child is going to be your priority and the company will come second, so can you still work?'" Moon-jeong says.
"And he kept repeating this question."
Moon-jeong was working as a tax accountant at the time. As the busiest time of the year approached, her boss piled even more work on her - and when she complained, he said she lacked dedication. Eventually the tensions came to a head.
"He was yelling at me. I was sitting in my chair and, with all the stress, my body started convulsing and I couldn't open my eyes," says Moon-jeong, her open, freckly face crumpling into a frown.
"My co-worker called a paramedic and I was taken to hospital."
At the hospital the doctors told her that stress was bringing about signs of miscarriage.
When Moon-jeong returned to work after a week in hospital, her pregnancy saved, she felt her boss was doing everything he could to force her out of her job.
She says this kind of experience isn't uncommon.
"I think there are many cases where women get concerned when they're pregnant and you have to think very hard before announcing your pregnancy," she says.
"Many people around me have no children and plan to have no children."

A culture of hard work, long hours and dedication to one's job are often credited for South Korea's remarkable transformation over the last 50 years, from developing country to one of the world's biggest economies.
But Yun-hwa says the role women played in this transformation often seems to be overlooked.
"The economic success of Korea also very much depended on the low-wage factory workers, which were mostly female," she says.
"And also the care service that women had to provide in the family in order for men to go out and just focus on work."
Now women are increasingly doing jobs previously done by men - in management and the professions. But despite these rapid social and economic changes, attitudes to gender have been slow to shift.
"In this country, women are expected to be the cheerleaders of the men," says Yun-hwa.
More than that, she says, there's a tendency for married women to take the role of care-provider in the families they marry into.
"There's a lot of instances when even if a woman has a job, when she marries and has children, the child-rearing part is almost completely her responsibility," she says. "And she's also asked to take care of her in-laws if they get sick."
The average South Korean man spends 45 minutes a day on unpaid work like childcare, according to figures from the OECD, while women spend five times that.

"My personality isn't fit for that sort of supportive role," says Yun-hwa. "I'm busy with my own life."
It's not just that she is not interested in marriage, though. She doesn't even want boyfriends. One reason for that is the risk of becoming a victim of revenge porn, which she says is a "big issue" in Korea. But she's also concerned about domestic violence.
The Korean Institute of Criminology published the results of a survey last year in which 80% of men questioned admitted to having been abusive towards romantic partners.
When I ask Yun-hwa how men see women in South Korea, she has a one-word answer: "Slave."
It's clear to see how this feeds into South Korea's baby shortage. The marriage rate in South Korea is at its lowest since records began - 5.5 per 1,000 people, compared with 9.2 in 1970 - and very few children are born outside marriage.
Only Singapore, Hong Kong and Moldova have a fertility rate (the number of children per woman) as low as South Korea's. All are on 1.2, according to World Bank figures, while the replacement rate - the number needed for a population to remain level - is 2.1.

Another factor putting people off starting a family is the cost. While state education is free, the competitive nature of schooling means parents are expected to fork out for extra tuition just so their child can keep up.
All these ingredients have combined to produce a new social phenomenon in South Korea: the Sampo Generation. The word "sampo" means to give up three things - relationships, marriage and children.
Defiantly independent, Yun-hwa says she hasn't given those three things up - she's chosen not to pursue them. She won't say whether she intends to be celibate, or to pursue relationships with women.
Speak to South Koreans from older generations about the low fertility rate and the contrast in attitude is sharp. They see people like Yun-hwa as too individualistic and selfish.
I start chatting to two women in their 60s enjoying the stream-side park that runs through central Seoul. One tells me she has three daughters in their 40s, but none has had children.
"I try to instil patriotism and duty to the country with the kids, and of course I would love to see them continuing the line," she says. "But their decision is not to do that."
"There should be that sense of duty to the country," her friend chips in. "We're very worried about the low fertility rate here."
Yun-hwa and her contemporaries, the children of a globalised world, aren't persuaded by such arguments.
When I put it to her that if she and her contemporaries don't have children her country's culture will die, she tells me that it's time for the male-dominated culture to go.
"Must die," she says, breaking into English. "Must die!"
Source: BBC
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Date: 2018-08-19 10:10 pm (UTC)Yeah, idk why us young folk should worry about the fertility rates? We've told the people in power and men what we want, and we're not being given it, so we have to decide what's most important to us and do right by us. I feel for the women who are too scared to get into relationship ships and have kids, and I also feel for all the women who "try to have it all" only to have society force them to do more and say they're still not doing enough. I mean, what is patriotism when your country won't give you human rights in return for your 'patriotism'?
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Date: 2018-08-20 01:42 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2018-08-19 10:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-19 10:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-19 10:33 pm (UTC)It's true, though
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Date: 2018-08-19 10:42 pm (UTC)if i'm not mistaken, park geunhye's administration also got rid of a lot of the benefits—or assistance is probably the better word bc even those didn't seem to be enough that families got when they had kids. it seems impossible to start a family there so i don't blame anyone for choosing not to.
slightly off topic but i feel like this is one of those articles every kpop fan should read. as much as we all enjoy the pop culture i think it's important that everyone knows what kind of society our faves grew up in and are a part of so nobody can delude themselves into thinking korea is some happy kpop land
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Date: 2018-08-20 02:04 am (UTC)its so common to see kpop fans deluded with the idea about korea being this perfect kpop themed park were everybody look like your fave idol ... they swear the whole country revolves around kpop and kdramas
i hope we keep seeing this kind of content, people needs some perspective
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Date: 2018-08-19 10:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-19 11:14 pm (UTC)also i don't want to give birth to a possible daughter in this male-dominated society.
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Date: 2018-08-19 11:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-20 05:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-19 11:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-19 11:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-20 12:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-20 01:27 am (UTC)Looking at the graph yes it looks like it is going to go down by a lot but it looks like it is more then it was in the beginning of the graph. Also that is by 2065 things could change still where society starts accepting women in the working world, having kids and being able to do both with help from the men. I think a lot of men minds will need to change for this to happen.
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Date: 2018-08-20 02:40 am (UTC)People get scared of dying alone.
I already have a plan for when I get to be a legit old person so me not having kids isnt going to factor into anything.
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Date: 2018-08-20 01:42 am (UTC)I think about these things a lot. And while it's dead-on important to talk about reasons women who might OTHERWISE want kids decide not to (health problems, money, responsibilities, jerk ass men) I also wish we would talk about the fact that... women are not forced into having children in exchange for a livelihood anymore. Even in a perfectly egalitarian society where everyone has enough money to live, have kids, and pursue traveling and other passions, and even the guarantee that I would have no complications with childbirth, I STILL wouldn't want to have kids. Because I don't want them and never have. Sometimes I feel like these articles are like the government trying to "solve" the issue of women not giving birth. (Which is a terrifying process, btw. Thanks society for making sure so many girls never find out about that.) Sometimes, we do not need solving. There have always been women who never wanted kids, but today more than ever we have the power to say no.
idk, I just think about my grandmother a lot. That woman was clearly not meant to have kids and resented the fact her whole life (based on my own experiences with her and my mom's stories.) But she couldn't get out of it. She grew up in a time where she HAD to marry and HAD to have sex with her husband (but me talking about the decline in sexual activity among young women and how it compares to our recent foremothers who had little power of consent is a whole 'nother conversation) and HAD to have whatever babies took in her body... I'm just so fucking glad I live in a world where my greatest nightmare doesn't have to come true. (Yet, anyway. My biggest nightmare is being forced to be pregnant and give birth.) I've talked to more than a few women like me... sure, some women change their minds as they get older and circumstances change, but for a lot of us, we will never want kids no matter what. There is no solving us. We are not a puzzle to solve or a problem to fix by changing society so having and raising kids is easier.
Wow sorry about my soapbox. Do women need more protections and our cultures need more shifting so it's more liable to raise a family while still doing other things? Absolutely. But I wish we could also acknowledge our newfound power of saying "no," which so many of our foremothers could not say without severe cost. Even in America, the power to say no to getting married and having babies (or just one or the other) is a pretty recent thing. It's gotta be such a different struggle in East Asia.
(andI think I'm gonna print out that last bit of the article tbh. Paste it to the back of my laptop.)
ETA: and re-reading the parts about the aunties saying shit about having babies is patriotic (getting some Good Wife Wise Mother vibes here) is making me break out in HIVES. Like let's be real, the source of all this fertility rate panic in places like SK and Japan is ethnic and cultural purity, especially when arguments like "well we're running out of people to do shit jobs!" is quickly countered with "y'all be pushing out immigrants willing to do those jobs" and the crickets start CHIRPING.
no subject
Date: 2018-08-20 03:32 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2018-08-20 01:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-20 01:53 am (UTC)"i would love to have a baby with a korean man, they are ungreateful with their own culture"
🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦
i know korean wave is about spreading korean culture but let's not perpetuate wrong concepts just for the sake of kpop
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Date: 2018-08-20 02:06 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2018-08-20 01:58 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-20 02:55 am (UTC)also, honestly people who fetishize korean, or asian culture in general are disgusting. i know this guy who is like asian culture is so cool, they have like new technologies and stuff, like bro u don't know half of the shit that goes down.
no subject
Date: 2018-08-20 03:05 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2018-08-20 03:33 am (UTC)i've never wanted kids, and recently i've come into the idea of not wanting to get married either.
i'd do it for tax benefits because adulting sucks, but beyond financial reasons I can't see a reason to get married tbh.
no subject
Date: 2018-08-20 08:30 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2018-08-20 03:39 am (UTC)At the hospital the doctors told her that stress was bringing about signs of miscarriage.
this is sad and just really fucking awful.
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Date: 2018-08-20 04:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-20 12:34 pm (UTC)Even if you want them now it must be terrifying to think what kind of shit men will pull 10 years from now when you'd hope you would be busy just trying to get your kids to school okay.
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Date: 2018-08-20 06:16 am (UTC)It sucks how this happens everywhere. I remember getting a job interview not long ago in my country and the male interviewer kept asking me if I had plans to get married and have children in the future, lol.
It was obvious why he asked that.
no subject
Date: 2018-08-20 08:31 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2018-08-20 12:21 pm (UTC)I know it's an extremely radical position to take but I wish political lesbianism was more popular. I think boycotting men entirely (or at least excluding them as much as we can manage) is a very powerful action we can take and the most straightforward way to getting power and achieving equal rights. It's not just future daughters that won't be safe in this world, sons will suffer from the patriarchy as well as there is no way to raise them "right" if society is hellbent on either hurting them or turning them into monstrous manbabies.
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Date: 2018-08-20 05:08 pm (UTC)I do hope the older generation/policy makers see that this generation does not think the same way and that perhaps not use the same tools for making change, instead of forcing it
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Date: 2018-08-20 09:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-20 11:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-21 07:06 pm (UTC)