[OMONA DISCUSSION] What's the best age to debut and when are you too old?

[goshipgurl.livejournal.com]

Today, I read the following article on Netizenbuzz about Chanmi (from PD101). Some netizens talked about her age and that she's already too old to debut in a K-pop group. I just couldn't stop thinking about this topic. In K-pop, it seems perfectly fine to debut kids that are still in middle school or that just entered high school (for example, Taemin debuted at 14, or look at Somi, she's 15). These kids are still in puberty, are still growing up. Isn't it wrong to throw them into the entertainment industry at such a young age? Isn't it better to debut idols when they're in their early or middle 20s, after graduating school and experiencing a "normal" childhood? What's so wrong about idols that are almost 30?

I thought that here at Omona we could discuss this (and other topics) in weekly/monthly OMONA DISCUSSION posts. I'd love to hear your opinions about this topic, and if you would have debuted at such a young age. Do you feel bad for idols that have to face critism and hate from netizens while still being kids?



Article: 'Momoland' Heo Chanmi makes a surprise appearance... "I hope you get to debut"

Source: OSEN via Nate

1. [+367, -7] Heo Chanmi is so old now so I don't think it's possible for her to debut with a new girl group... she needs to go solo
2. [+297, -47] She was the sacrificial lamb of 'Produce 101' and their malicious editing tactics... Find strength and find a way to debut
3. [+236, -15] Seems like she'll be stuck as a trainee forever as a concept..
4. [+44, -0] I watched her on 'Produce 101' and she's talented for sure but doesn't have that public friendly charm....
5. [+36, -1] I feel bad for her. She was in the debut line up for SNSD and f(x) and I don't know what happened but she left as an SM trainee and her 5dolls debut didn't do well, her Co-Ed debut didn't do well.. eliminated from 'Produce 101'... Nothing goes right for her
6. [+29, -12] She's only 25 years old, I still think she has a chance. Sojin, Park Bom, and Sandara debuted in their late twenties, why can't Heo Chanmi?
- This Momoland show itself is a survival show from Heo Chanmi's own company and she's not even a part of the show. I don't know whether she had a choice in that or not but maybe she herself doesn't want to be in a girl group anymore.
- It's not because of her age. You either need to be pretty or charming and if the public doesn't think she has either one of those, it's probably one of the reasons why she hasn't found a place for herself yet.
- Even Irene has one of the top visuals among idols and she still gets hated on for her age, that's just the reality of the industry
7. [+20, -3] There's nothing more miserable than holding on to a dream that you can't achieve
8. [+19, -2] That filler at the end of her jaw
9. [+15, -1] It's true that she was the sacrificial lamb of malicious editing... but either way, I just don't see it working out for her. She could find another path to pursue...
10. [+15, -1] She shows that sometimes there are things even effort can't achieve


sources: netizenbuzz + nate

mods, if you think this format doesn't suit omona you don't have to approve this post. this is just a random idea. maybe we can turn this into a weekly/monthly thing (i'd love to talk about the possibility of a foreign idol in a k-pop group for example). also, i used the most random tags cuz i didn't know how to tag this post.

Comments

[chastainy.livejournal.com]

I don't really mind older idols but I always find it weird when super young idols debut with older members. Like there's such a disconnect between a 21 and a 14 year old.
Was it Taemin that said he didn't really get along with the older members of shinee in the beginning?

[showminomoney.livejournal.com]

I agree at the weirdness of the age difference. The group dynamics just work better when the idols are all within a certain age range, and comfortable enough to see each other as friends/kind of equals.

[scionofawhisper.livejournal.com]

I think if you got an education and had a normal life you wouldn't want to become an idol anymore, cause you'd understand what kind of life it is. And that the people who make debuts at older ages were working to become an idol for a long time and so they didn't really have any other path to take...

If you get them young they are malleable and you also have so much power over them. They probably don't have much money or authority, (still don't really have their own identity, etc) particularly since Korea is such a hierarchical society... Sometimes I think companies withhold money from their talents just so they can continue to have power over them and the talent has nowhere to go, has no money, so the companies can force them to do whatever.

Also, the market is so saturated, you have to use whatever available tools you have, and youth is certainly a huge one. In a market so focused on beauty, when you are younger your skin is better, more elastic, etc.

And for all the dancing they do, older idols complain a bit more about all the exercising and stuff. It's harder on them if they are older... ~_~;

And if your contract for an idol is 7 years, it would make sense to get them young as possible. :x

Edit: Just thought of more stuff. Plastic surgery - if they need work done, better to get it super early, so there isn't as much evidence of what you looked like before, which leads to another point, that older people have more baggage, more online presence, more stuff they could have done in life that could look badly on them/the group if it came to light...

[goshipgurl.livejournal.com]

And that the people who make debuts at older ages were working to become an idol for a long time and so they didn't really have any other path to take...

Thats one thing that bothers me the most. Why train some of these kids for up to 7,8 years? I just dont get it. Why take in trainees when you dont plan to debut a new group in the next 4,5 years? Why do they waste these kids time? Even if they have no talent at all they dont need years of training. Max 2 years are enough imo.

[cafetin99.livejournal.com]

14 seems really young to me... For the boys, the companies want to squeeze the life from them before military service so I guess that's their excuse, and for the girls beauty and being young are everything (according to the world)... not to mention that if you are a woman you get hate just for being a woman, and 1000000% more if they are old, fat, don't fit the standards of beauty and behavior, etc.

But, it's not a surprise that women (99.99%) and idols/etc. get hate for their age, since KPOP (and the world to be honest) has an extremely unhealthy obsession with being forever young.

I guess 18 would be ok for me, hs is done and you have time.

[dothecrunge.livejournal.com]

ia, imo I think 18 is the lowest acceptable age. They definitely don't need years and years of training - someone upthread said 2 years max. I think it's reasonable to have trainees start at 16 and have them practice in between school work/on weekends/more extensively in summer to then debut at 18.

[kary1591.livejournal.com]

Most groups I stan fall into the older-ish idol bracket so I don't think age should be an issue.. but I kinda get why it is? Especially with guys and them having to enlist eventually. I'm already dreading my groups going off so I get why the sooner they debut the better. I do sometimes think "damn, they're children" now that I've experienced debuts but it's not like there isn't even younger children in the entertainment business (acting). So if 5 year olds can appear in dramas and sitcoms I don't see why 14 year olds can't be singers/performers.

[soyunatetera.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on how the groups career develops, like Dara and Bom debuted with an age considerably over the average, but 2en1 found success super quickly, so no one can say it was a waste. But I guess is different if you debut older and you have it harder to achive some kind of level of success, it can be seen as that maybe you should consider other job, not an idol, maybe in entertainment field, because of the pressure of how idols are perceived socially.
This happens in general, of course every professional could have particularities, being an idol is associated to being young since dancing pop boy band/girl groups as we know them also started to appear in the late 80 and 90, and very few survived to have long careers as groups, different is with soloist, so I can see why the general idea is that this is a job for younger people, since it's a fairly new job itself. But also in other type of jobs there's also the idea that in a certain age you have to have some things/goles achived. It's just how we control certain social norms based on age order.
Of course I think and idol job can be made at multiples ages, having 25/30/35 (even 40 lmao SMAP still performed and they were all in their forties, even if now they're over we can still take them as an example) But being able to make a job doesn't get away the away the fact that we all associate it with younger people.

[cuizy.livejournal.com]

Saw you mention SMAP I had to reply that they're not really an idol group now since they've all become successful actors and the idol landscape is different from korea's

[seulgibear.livejournal.com]

i don't think there's too old, or there shouldn't be, but kpop is mostly aimed at young audiences so i guess they'd have more trouble selling someone with a bigger age gap. i think 18 and over would be ideal given the nature of kpop and the industry. i don't mind underage idols as long as they're handled right
in this case 25 is not old but it depends on how old the other members would be and the concept of the group. it's not impossible to create a good group, but she could also get stuck with sugary cute concepts

this is a good idea for a post. thanks op!

[amandaplan.livejournal.com]

if a member is really talented singing/rapping wise, dancing wise, or just really emotionally mature then I think it's kind of okay to debut young although 15 seems like the youngest it should be. If someone debuts young just because of their "visual" then I think it's creepy tbh. I don't think anyone is too old to debut as long as they fit the group's style and don't look out of place. dara looks so young for her age so I could see her debuting still if she wasn't already in a group with the right group.

[pikapika217.livejournal.com]

Thinking of this topic, I'm reminded of how young Hyuna & Sohee (14 IIRC) were when the Wonder Girls debuted and that's so scary & I also remember G-Story and how they were all under 11 or so (I legit wonder if any of them still have idol aspirations or if they've moved on). 12 seems like a good age for a trainee with a debut at 16? a 7 year contract leaves them at 23 or so which seems fine?

For older I can't help but think that it's one of Spica's obstacles (as well as song structure/choices) and do think that for idol life specifically that mid 20s would seem to be 'too old' for that mainstream group style but have no real cultural knowledge to make further comment.

[sjtaazrz.livejournal.com]

Being an idol is basically about being likable and entertaining while having no real life outside of your job.

For younger idols, this works because they have yet to experience things for themselves at that age and they are malleable and eager to succeed. Idols often have this overly innocent "fans are my boy/girlfriend image" which doesn't work for someone that has an identity outside of their job. (Even idols that do ~sexy concepts or party songs don't really extend that image to getting caught at clubs or openly admitting to having relationships or sex).

I think this definition of an idol is changing as we have people and groups in their 30s like Hyori or Shinhwa still being supported and numerous idols who write and/or produce their own music. But, this doesn't change the definition of what we often think an idol is. Part of the job is fitting into a box and being fun/cute/sexy w/e enough to make people forget out their own hardships and just enjoy the variety shows and pop songs. Youth is part of that escapism.

[typhlogirl.livejournal.com]

This is a SUPER cool idea for a post/series OP - the comments are the main reason I come to Omona so I'm keen to participate!

As for the topic, I personally think 16 should be the minimum age for debut. It just feels so...off to have 13-15 yo kids paraded around on stage for consumption by adults (I know most kpop fans are young, that's not my point). I know a 16yo is hardly an adult, but at least that's leaning more towards late teens :/

[goshipgurl.livejournal.com]

Thank you!! ❤

[sra-interesante.livejournal.com]

in a global industry that praises young and fresh looks, for a fandom culture that insults idols calling them "has-been" or "old news" and not looking your age is one of the best compliments .... those unwritten age limits seem logical

[aurellee.livejournal.com]

How about they get rid of the debut system or the idea? The idea of debuting is so pigeonholed, it affect the growth of their talent pools for the entertainment industry, especially when they want to go out of SK, like entering the US market. They kept thinking about debuting when nobody fucking care, not even Japan care about debut system. It's even more annoying that everyone is so adamant about getting a rookie/debut award. What does that matter in the long run if you don't last?

[ultraflyy23.livejournal.com]

I don't understand this comment? What's the alternative to debuting?

[showminomoney.livejournal.com]

Good post, OP! I love the idea of weekly discussion posts of this kind on here.

I think debuting older is fine. People should be able to get into whatever they want to at any age. It's just unfortunate that in their industry you really have to be young and beautiful, apart from talented, to get far.
I like to think that idols that debut at an older age are more sure of what path they want to take than the younger kids that are pushed into the industry by their parents or guardians. And also, they're more aware of the kind of attention they'll be getting.
Debuting at 16 seems an okay enough age.

[goshipgurl.livejournal.com]

Thank you <3

[lulufairybubble.livejournal.com]

I dont care about debuting at an older age. If Im not mistaken Kahi was much older and she slayed.

[anconeous.livejournal.com]

Depends. I'm fine with Taemin and Jisung debuting at 14 and Changmin at 15 because at least when they debuted, SM didn't pass their whole groups as older or make them dance with hypersexualized moves or whatever. Somi, on the other hand, is 15 and being styled to look much older, which I personally dislike seeing. I got turned off of BTS when they debuted, too, because I remember they were the ones flashing abs and LOL their maknae was a child back then. Nope.

[reasontowander.livejournal.com]

its so odd that the general consensus among korean netizens is that Chanmi is way too old to be a kpop girl group member, when in the US their counterparts (i.e. Ariana Grande, Selena Gomez, Demi Lavoto, etc.) are all essentially that age.

while I think its fine to have 16+ aged idols, the way they are treated can be questionable at times. For example, whenever they have young girl groups show up on variety shows just to perform (usually in front of an all male, middle age cast) and the men fall over themselves as if they were teenage girls being turned on by Justin Beiber. Its behavior that's encouraged and accepted as the norm, yet to me the underlying feeling always seems a bit perverse. Also whenever they talking about girl groups being a source of "strength" to men in the army. Like wtf, does anybody honestly believe they mean that in a "they're like my little sisters cheering me on!" kind of way and not in a "I have wet dreams about them at night because I'm lonely and have to be surrounded by only men for 2 years" kind of way?? lbr they aren't even being coy whenever they hint at shit like that. that's why clips like twice performing at that army base on Real Men just give me the creeps.

some of these men are old enough to be their father, but here they are gazing mighty intently at this group of 18 year olds

[boxcuttergirl.livejournal.com]

mte, army performances skeeve me out so much

[myrrhcat.livejournal.com]

re: bom and dara at least, their being able to debut at an older age was probably largely due to ~YG POWER~. i don't think it was possible for 2ne1 to flop. and if they had done a "sexy" or "cute" concept their age might have mattered more, but the with the tough/cool/hip-hop/whatever concept age is less relevant. and of course, YGE seems to be the only company that can make girl groups with that concept that don't flop, so again it's YGE to thank. (instead they get the dungeon eventually)

this discussion makes me sad. even moreso because it's chanmi. i voted for her every single time when she was on p101. she said something on that show, about how she remained confident even after making a mistake (while performing), and that backfired on her bc people thought of that as arrogance. so yeah, there's more to it than just her age. being older AND having self-esteem is apparently unacceptable. btw she's gorgeous.

[cxxl.livejournal.com]

I think until the industry does an overhaul on some things it is hard for them to justify anyone (let alone kids). You got them working grown people 9-5 hours+ extra no overtime and expect them to not be burnt out all the time and smile and not have some sort of issues.
Also I don't think being. A k pop idol is supposed to be sustaining. K pop is a young persons thing through and through. It is supposed to target the youth (not ignoring the older fans) and so the best way to grab a 13 year old is to get a 15-17 year old. It's like with every teen heart throb. Most of them were teens like their target demographic (and a lot of them didn't crossover huts that's another issue). Disney made a fortune off of this in the last two decades. And so has K pop. I think the last five or six years have really made it the norm for groups to last longer than their once perceived expiration date. That's why even groups who don't have a penny to their name are magically coming back every blue moon to flop again.
I think the older you get you realize that k pop, as great of a stepping stone it is, isnt supposed to sustain you and eventually if you want a viable career you would have to move on. That way it would be convenient for you to leave after five-six years and the company could debut another group without the guilt of having to put you in the back because a new crop of tweens have appeared.
But now you have idols in their 30's a whole decade into their career still making music still getting jobs. It's not that idols are getting younger it's that the ones we are used have gotten older and the nest isn't big enough to sustain them because they still using a system designed to replace old with new.
But to answer the question: iDK...I feel like being a child star wouldn't be bad if they were protected and nurtured properly. I'm still trying to figure out why we haven't seen so many burnouts.

[goshipgurl.livejournal.com]

I'm still trying to figure out why we haven't seen so many burnouts.

we have. i lost count on how many idols have fainted in the past. but companies just cover them up and/or sent their idols to the hospital to get a simple IV-drip for a few hours and then back to business.

also, drugs. sad but true.

[dorawa.livejournal.com]

I feel like 17-22 is a good time to debut. Any younger kind of gets me uncomfortable. I teach middle school which is like 12-15 year olds and they are super immature and have no experience and are super sheltered. That's all I can think of when I see these young idols :/

[jileader.livejournal.com]

Rather than a minimum age to debut, I think think there should be one for becoming a trainee.
If you debut at 20 and spend 5 years training, your childhood/school years are lost.
If I felt extreme amount of pressure over choosing a major and university to study at 17, which is something that I can easily change in the future and is not limiting, I can't even imagine what it means to make such a huge decision younger than that and that can be so defining.
It's easy to change majors, it isn't easy to try and compensate years of lost education.

[jileader.livejournal.com]

Also wtf is this too old to be an idol, that's ridiculous

[rightclick5ave.livejournal.com]

I personally prefer groups with older members partly because I'm 👵 (90liner) and also because I feel like the maturity shows in the way their songs are performed and expressed.

my top two groups are Spica ('89 to '86) and 9muses ('92 to '87, before Keumjo joined it was '91 to '87) and it just feels easier to connect to their songs and relate to them as artists/people because they're around my age or older than me. (and of course it feels good to be able to call them unnie LOL ngl that's a big factor)

some people are born to be idols but most of the kids in the industry are idols in training imo.. they're all young and starry eyed and this is the only life they know, I really hope they don't lose their innocence too early or get jaded :(

the younger they are, the easier it is to brainwash and mould them into whatever product the company wants.. Spica have had it relatively easy at B2M in terms of having freedom outside of promotion time, but even they had little say in their concepts until Tonight. 9m have such strong personalities and we all saw what happened ON CAMERA in their documentary. if this is the life of young women in their 20s, I hate to think what scared, helpless kids are subjected to :(((

[broadcities.livejournal.com]

yeah same re: older group members if you're an older fan (i'm from '91). though i've come to the conclusion that they don't have to be older than i am (i'm a bangtan fan so....), newer groups that mostly consist of teens are so difficult for me to relate to.

and also good point on younger idols perhaps not having the confidence/life experience to stand up to their company! i feel that in spica especially some members already had some jobs on the side to make money for themselves - younger idols might not be so independent and in that way are more subjected to what their company wants from them

[broadcities.livejournal.com]

also op this is such a great idea for a returning series! i love this post!

[goshipgurl.livejournal.com]

[dot-rose.livejournal.com]

I don't think age is a factor if you can maintain the idol look (ie. Irene, Dara) and your age is not widely known(?).

The reason why people seem to be protesting about Chamni's age is because her 'resume' is rather public compared to the other older idols.
We know that she could have debuted with Girls' Generation [2007] who are now considered to be the older idols, we know that she had a chance to be in Fx [2009] who have exited the cute phase and are transitioning to mature indie music. Then she debuted in Co-Ed [2010] and 5Dolls which have been disbanded [Chanmi left in 2012]. Finally, we have PD101 [2016], in this show, she was portrayed as one of the older trainees, she talked about her hardships of almost debuting multiple times on that show.
Thus in the public's eye, she is old.

Compared to idols who are considered old but have little to no media footprint. To the public, they might as well be as young as the maknae. Not to mention, with the current trend of innocent schoolgirl cutesy concept, companies are looking to debut younger trainees. I remember watching Chamni perform Yum Yum on PD101, those cute facial expressions were a bit stiff or perhaps it was my perception due to knowing she is older compared to the rest of the girls in that performance.

OT

[goshipgurl.livejournal.com]

chanmi almost joining f(x) is news to me, i thought she left after soshi debuted.

[glider.livejournal.com]

All idol industries should shift their age bracket higher but since they won't, I'd rather deal with Korea debuting people at 14 with training than Japan debuting kids as young as 6 and usually between 10-13 without training (which just implies to me that it's all about purely profiting off their youth, rather than them being talented at anything).

[goshipgurl.livejournal.com]

as young as 6


WHAT
THE
FUCK

[lazmy.livejournal.com]

this is a really great idea. thank you for bringing this discussion here!

[goshipgurl.livejournal.com]