I'm having so much GOT7 lately, and I'm not complaining. My love for JB is out of the charts lately, with all the hot and cute Maybe I should watch again Romantic & Idol to cool it down.
They would be probably biased and don't care, or they would blow it out of proportion. The usual in kpop fandom. I feel like I should watched it again because I don't remember anything apart from judging JB, even though he and JunK were the reason I watched it. The show is from 2012! maybe time made me exaggerate how bad it was lol At least he was like 19 and you can totally see GOT7 and being a leader made him grow up a lot in a short time.
romantic & idol was interesting. jb was definitely very different then so you should watch it if you want to compare how much he's matured since then but not if you want to like him lmao
I know haha I watched it when the aired it because I already liked him. Even if I didn't like some of his behaviour he was like 19, I'm not going to be harsh on him about not knowing how to act in one his first varieties shows with a woman more mature than him.
haha no, i agree. i'm actually much more critical of him because he's my favorite but he's definitely improved since then so i'm not too worried about it.
I hope you don't mind that I answer you. I don't how much to trust in my memory but: Just to the one who liked him. He was 19 and Seungah (the girl who he was paired most of the time) was almost 6 years older. He was kind of rude to her in some moments (not at the beginning, he was really nice to her at first), because he was interested in other girls but was stuck with her in the dates (this sounds really bad but I don't know how to say it). In the dates they were supposed to do some romantics missions, and he didn't even try. It was really uncomfortable for Seungah who seemed to like him, not in a "I want to be you girlfriend" way but she liked to spend time with him. My guess is that he didn't have much experience in relationships and GOT7's members already said that he has quite a temper, so probably he didn't know how to act, and end up being impolite with her. It wasn't that bad, I wouldn't call him problematic because of his behaviour, but it didn't left a good image either.
He was basically inconsiderate, not necessarily an asshole, but really tactless and immature. I don't think he even realized that she got hurt until later, and I'm just glad he man-ed up at one point and apologized. Seungah is also a super sweet girl, but honestly too sensitive at times. Combine both and you get a royal mess lol (though not nearly as bad as Season 2 with the new cast, don't even attempt to watch that -____-).
I've watched it like 3 times already cause I love Jun.K and Hyejeong too, and JB is still my bias. Just shows you no one is perfect and how time and maturity can change people for the better :)
He wasn't too bad, just very inexperienced and immature. But I like him more because of that experience because you can see how much more self aware he is now.
Can someone please tell me WHAT JYP is trying to do? The marketing major in me is practically screaming her lungs out. I thought they fixed their management issues! D:
Use the international craze of Just Right to help the boys find some footing in S.Korea, then release a repackaged version. There is a reason SM follows the repackage formula closely. It works.
JYP could have done so much more at the beginning of this comeback because Just Right had so much fucking potential. The biggest example is how a couple of international fans started the "Just Right Selfie Project ". It was just a simple fan project to support the boys and promote a better self-image, but it went lowkey viral on social media sites. It was even trending in South Korean sites. Koreans fans were legitimately impressed. Companies kill for this type of random luck. What did JYPE do? Nothing.Absolutely NOTHING. They let the momentum die when they could have used the "healing-dol" angle to their benefit. All they had to do was slightly modify their promotional tactic in order to include a wider demographic.
It was so frustrating to watch the hype fizzle out, especially as someone who has been taught to recognize the signs of a project that can be propelled into success. If they had played their cards right, it would have been possible to get at least SOME public exposure for Just Right, and sometimes that's exactly what you need in order to turn the tables. That kind of small public recognition turning into an outpour of support is what allowed Baek A Yeon to go up against digital monsters like Big Bang and EXO. Imagine what that plus the fact that the public's favorite Wang Jackson and talented idol-actor Junior are in this group could have done for this comeback.
And now it's been less than a month since Just Right was release and it seems JYPE is changing tactics and shipping them off to Japan.
I'm sorry for the essay. I swear I can probably write my impending senior thesis on JYPE's marketing mess.
I haven't been following GOT7 closely this cb, but it seems they just stopped promoing? I'm honestly surprised that they didn't capitualize on that trend. They could have easily had the boys take a selfie with the #hashtag and maybe some of the other idols in their company as well and then send them on variety with a healing focus. I'm honestly surprised at the lack of Korean promos. I know they have a huge intl fan base and need to get a foothold in Japan to rake in cash, but there's still money in Korea.
The problem is that the company can't send them on variety shows. They need some degree of public recognition in order to get invited to those shows in the first place. Thankfully Jackson had luck on his side with the second season of Roommate and got to show his variety skills and get public recognition, but the group itself won't be able to come on shows until there is demand for them :/
I totally agree with you. I've been frustrated with them, but more so for the other boys. That said, I'm seeing more social stuff coming from from the GOT7 camp. Not to mention the 'V' app is going to be very beneficial to them.
The thing with their Japanese stuff is that it's all planned out WAY in advanced. They announced their Japanese tour dates like 2 months ago for January. That delay that I made a huge deal about earlier, that affected everyone, like JYPE hinted to.
With the exception of JYP going against Miss A earlier, I don't think that JYPE really makes a habit of promoting two artists/groups at once. So if you think about it, they had planned June for 2PM, July for GOT7, August for Wonder Girls. And then they have two groups that will most likely debut sometime in the fall. December is shot because of all the year end stuff. GOT7 was the meat to a very crappy scheduling sandwich. 2PM got pushed back, and they didn't want to promote GOT7 while 2PM was promoting, so they had to wait until 2PM wrapped up. And literally less than 24 hours after that ended, GOT7's teasers came out. And their schedules got smushed because Wonder Girls comeback was already announced. Everyone was anticipating it, they probably had to choose between pushing Wonder Girls back, teasing Wonder Girls the same time as GOT7's promotion, or condensing GOT7's promotional period. Either way, GOT7 definitely got the short end of the straw. That's not even including the planned schedules overseas.
I know a lot of people complained about my whining saying/asking why JYPE didn't have a plan B for 2PM. It wasn't just 2PM though, it was a lot of other people in the company that got screwed over. In order to plan for those types of contingencies, they'd have to plan it for everyone. Not the smartest thing, but considering JYPE had never really run into that kind of situation in the past, they probably never thought of it and tried to get all of their artists as much activities as they could.
As for why do they go to Japan. JYPE has found great success over there with 2PM. They're trying to emulate that success with GOT7. I can also understand why from the financial perspective; 2PM will be enlisting soon. They're the company's cash cow, even though a lot of people enjoy saying differently. The amount of revenue they bring in from concerts alone is insane. And in 2013, it was reported that almost 80% of JYPE's revenue was being brought in by 2PM. (Read some of their financial statements, it's pretty interesting) When your cash cow is going to be gone for 2 years, you probably 1) want to get the most out of them while you can and 2) make sure you have someone in place who could possibly recover any of the loss you'll have to take with the absence. The activities in Japan is generating quite a bit of revenue for them. Yes, it sucks that they're not in Korea more, but I can see why Japanese activities, from a business perspective, are lucrative for them.
I could also be talking out of my ass. I don't work for JYPE so I have no clue what the heck is going on over there.
There's always next year. Here's hoping that the scheduling is a little easier, that they won't get fucked over by people, that maybe they'll bring in fresh blood. The boys deserve love in Korea and I hope that they'll be able to get it soon.
P.S. You should totally write that thesis. The marketer in me got so frustrated at their lack of a true social footprint that I started working on a marketing plan for them as well. There are so many things they can do that they're not taking advantage of and it's very sad.
I'm not a JYP stan and I've only been a fan of GOT7 for a few months but maybe you can answer this question - when 2PM debuted in Japan what was their status in Korea?
I wasn't around the fandom at that time, but from what I could tell, they were doing well. They debuted in Japan in November of 2011. But between Hands Up's release in June 2011 and Grown in May 2013, Khun had his DUI, July 2012. During that time he was pretty much hated by everyone in Korea it seemed. And people still bring it up from time to time. The group didn't really have any activity at all in 2012 because the other five all agreed that they didn't want to promote without Khun. And between the two Korean releases they had two Japanese releases.
they gained many fans in japan (they're sill one of the best selling boygroups there) but they lost many fans in korea.. before their debut in japan they had more than 200K fans in the fancafe (from what i remember) and now they have only 126K fans.
in 2011 hands up was #24 on yearly chart (it was good) i'm talking about digital sales here of course, and in 2013 ADTOY wasn't in top 100. their public relevance dropped too.
this is what I'm afraid of happening! I want JYP to keep them in Korea so that they can establish a solid fanbase, but they keep getting shipped off to Japan :(
Genuine question, do you think the drop has to do with Khun's DUI, too? I just remembered him being one of the most loved idols to being one of the most hated overnight. I keep saying I'm new to 2PM, and I still believe I am by most standards, since I only started following them actively post-Go Crazy in 2014.
I don't want to start spewing things that is inaccurate and most things I've learn about them have been from people who have been around and know the group and the company well. I love JYPN and JYPE (still think that they're one of the best in terms of training and treatment of their artists) that said, I also know that they are a flawed company and often seem to be overlooking so many possible revenue generating opportunities for their artists.
I have little problems with their advancement in Japan. I understand that it's better from a business standpoint because the Korean market is so saturated, but like you said I honestly just wish they would handle the situation in their homeland better. It irks me to see so much potential go to waste.
I see where you are coming from with the MV cancellations and how that affected the entire company's comeback and debut line-up. I actually had a lengthy argument with a commenter in omona that kept insisting the that the company should have had a plan B and should have not been affected this much by. It was a bit ridiculous because they kept insisting there was no evidence the director was at fault when the repercussions of his actions can be clearly seen.
Maybe I'll get around to writing it, even if it's not for my senior thesis. Might get a kick out of my thesis adviser since he happens to be South Korea, even his focus isn't entertainment lol
I enjoyed reading this "essay" and yes, it is extremely frustrating to see the wasted opportunities and the potential it allows. JYPE has been in the game for so long and yet they're still not learning.
I get so heated up and frustrated whenever I think and talk about this. So many ways they could have promoted this comeback but didn't. Media play about Eundong being the girl in the MV. Send Jinyoung and Jackson to Hello Counselor, Youngjae to singing shows. Send the whole group to public broadcast shows, not the idol-based shows catered to fans. The group dynamic is what they are known and liked for. They need to reach out to the public, not wait for the public to discover them. What I'm worried now is the lack of vision for this group. I'm gonna stop now before my day is spoiled.
Jackson was on Cool Kiz and it's a pretty popular show (often ends up #1 in timeslot) and trended on Naver after that, today he's going to be on Strong Heart (the show is about to be taken off air so I don't think it was a good choice), and is going to be on the Laws of the Jungle in September (popular show, but still the rest of the group isn't doing anything).
I know that usually idols get offers from shows and JYP can't do anything but it's true that JYP has no idea what to do to make them more popular to the public as a group.
We, GOT7 fans are worried about the group's future and music direction every time they make a comeback. It's a shame that they still haven't made it big in Korea and the fact that two new groups are going to debut under JYPE this year makes me even more worried :/
A Japanese single already? Is this what JYP is doing for all of his groups? I only recall Miss A promoting for like a week or two (that is until he crashed in with his OWN comeback and snatched up the attention....setting that aside again), 2PM was there for like two weeks also?
I'm so confused by what his tactic here is. I get that if there's a commitment for the Japanese company, so why not just push back the Korean comeback so they're able to promote and find some footing by going on shows, etc? Maybe I'm just thinking too wishfully and not thinking about it from a business aspect.
JYP hasn't been at the helm of JYPE from a business standpoint for several years now, so in terms of marketing and all of that, it's not on him anymore. He's only really in charge of the music. So, crappy music you can give him crap for.
I've always wondered how their ventures in Japan works because it's always been fascinating to me that they're activities are so exclusive of each other. Like Japanese 2PM does not exist in the Korean mind and vice versa. I know that Sony/Epic distributes them, but they also have JYPE Japan. From what it looks like, it seems that their Japanese activities aren't as flexible as Korea. I also think that maybe because they have plans for the other comebacks and debuts they didn't want to overlap? (I know, I know, April was a shit show between Miss A and JYP. I don't know what happened there.)
P.S. I hope the first part didn't come off as bitchy. I rewrote it about 20 times trying to be as polite as possible haha. The JYP/JYPE thing is a common misconception people have.
No, I get it. I honestly don't understand what he does at his own company nor do I know much about the company at all, which is why I asked the questions to get answers.
I assumed as much for the Japanese promotions, but it seems like their K-promotions were unexpectedly cut. It just felt like I got a glimpse of other JYP artists and I wasn't sure if that was how things have always been like this in terms of how they promote.
His focus in mainly on the music production. Even though some places still list him as the CEO, the actual CEO's name is Jung Wook. You're not the only one though, a ton of people still think that he's the one running everything.
There had already been talks about their promotional period getting cut short because of the whole MV debacle delaying 2PM. Although, I guess they also only had one week of music shows, didn't they? I think they had planned at least 3-4 weeks of promotions, but with schedules being pushed back and delayed they had to make due with what they had. And they have a bit in their pipeline, so I can understand why things were done they way they were. Not ideal, but what's better no Korean comeback, but Japanese activities or a short Korean comeback?
![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 03:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 03:47 pm (UTC)My love for JB is out of the charts lately, with all the hot and cute
Maybe I should watch again Romantic & Idol to cool it down.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 03:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 04:12 pm (UTC)I feel like I should watched it again because I don't remember anything apart from judging JB, even though he and JunK were the reason I watched it. The show is from 2012! maybe time made me exaggerate how bad it was lol
At least he was like 19 and you can totally see GOT7 and being a leader made him grow up a lot in a short time.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 04:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 04:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 08:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 05:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 05:43 pm (UTC)Just to the one who liked him. He was 19 and Seungah (the girl who he was paired most of the time) was almost 6 years older. He was kind of rude to her in some moments (not at the beginning, he was really nice to her at first), because he was interested in other girls but was stuck with her in the dates (this sounds really bad but I don't know how to say it). In the dates they were supposed to do some romantics missions, and he didn't even try. It was really uncomfortable for Seungah who seemed to like him, not in a "I want to be you girlfriend" way but she liked to spend time with him.
My guess is that he didn't have much experience in relationships and GOT7's members already said that he has quite a temper, so probably he didn't know how to act, and end up being impolite with her.
It wasn't that bad, I wouldn't call him problematic because of his behaviour, but it didn't left a good image either.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 06:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 06:25 pm (UTC)I've watched it like 3 times already cause I love Jun.K and Hyejeong too, and JB is still my bias. Just shows you no one is perfect and how time and maturity can change people for the better :)
no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 08:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 06:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 03:53 pm (UTC)anyway I wasn't expecting this teaser. I'm anticipating!
jinyoungggggg whyyyyyyy
no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 04:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 04:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 09:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 05:03 pm (UTC)I like what they're wearing tho considering their record on jp. promo outfits.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-08 12:23 am (UTC)Everyone wants this except the company.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-08 05:08 am (UTC)at least they won't promote in japan until the end of august
no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 06:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 07:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 08:35 pm (UTC)JYP could have done so much more at the beginning of this comeback because Just Right had so much fucking potential. The biggest example is how a couple of international fans started the "Just Right Selfie Project ". It was just a simple fan project to support the boys and promote a better self-image, but it went lowkey viral on social media sites. It was even trending in South Korean sites. Koreans fans were legitimately impressed. Companies kill for this type of random luck. What did JYPE do? Nothing.Absolutely NOTHING. They let the momentum die when they could have used the "healing-dol" angle to their benefit. All they had to do was slightly modify their promotional tactic in order to include a wider demographic.
It was so frustrating to watch the hype fizzle out, especially as someone who has been taught to recognize the signs of a project that can be propelled into success. If they had played their cards right, it would have been possible to get at least SOME public exposure for Just Right, and sometimes that's exactly what you need in order to turn the tables. That kind of small public recognition turning into an outpour of support is what allowed Baek A Yeon to go up against digital monsters like Big Bang and EXO. Imagine what that plus the fact that the public's favorite Wang Jackson and talented idol-actor Junior are in this group could have done for this comeback.
And now it's been less than a month since Just Right was release and it seems JYPE is changing tactics and shipping them off to Japan.
I'm sorry for the essay. I swear I can probably write my impending senior thesis on JYPE's marketing mess.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 08:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 09:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 09:32 pm (UTC)I haven't been following GOT7 closely this cb, but it seems they just stopped promoing? I'm honestly surprised that they didn't capitualize on that trend. They could have easily had the boys take a selfie with the #hashtag and maybe some of the other idols in their company as well and then send them on variety with a healing focus. I'm honestly surprised at the lack of Korean promos. I know they have a huge intl fan base and need to get a foothold in Japan to rake in cash, but there's still money in Korea.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-11 01:30 am (UTC)Thankfully Jackson had luck on his side with the second season of Roommate and got to show his variety skills and get public recognition, but the group itself won't be able to come on shows until there is demand for them :/
no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 09:36 pm (UTC)The thing with their Japanese stuff is that it's all planned out WAY in advanced. They announced their Japanese tour dates like 2 months ago for January. That delay that I made a huge deal about earlier, that affected everyone, like JYPE hinted to.
With the exception of JYP going against Miss A earlier, I don't think that JYPE really makes a habit of promoting two artists/groups at once. So if you think about it, they had planned June for 2PM, July for GOT7, August for Wonder Girls. And then they have two groups that will most likely debut sometime in the fall. December is shot because of all the year end stuff. GOT7 was the meat to a very crappy scheduling sandwich. 2PM got pushed back, and they didn't want to promote GOT7 while 2PM was promoting, so they had to wait until 2PM wrapped up. And literally less than 24 hours after that ended, GOT7's teasers came out. And their schedules got smushed because Wonder Girls comeback was already announced. Everyone was anticipating it, they probably had to choose between pushing Wonder Girls back, teasing Wonder Girls the same time as GOT7's promotion, or condensing GOT7's promotional period. Either way, GOT7 definitely got the short end of the straw. That's not even including the planned schedules overseas.
I know a lot of people complained about my whining saying/asking why JYPE didn't have a plan B for 2PM. It wasn't just 2PM though, it was a lot of other people in the company that got screwed over. In order to plan for those types of contingencies, they'd have to plan it for everyone. Not the smartest thing, but considering JYPE had never really run into that kind of situation in the past, they probably never thought of it and tried to get all of their artists as much activities as they could.
As for why do they go to Japan. JYPE has found great success over there with 2PM. They're trying to emulate that success with GOT7. I can also understand why from the financial perspective; 2PM will be enlisting soon. They're the company's cash cow, even though a lot of people enjoy saying differently. The amount of revenue they bring in from concerts alone is insane. And in 2013, it was reported that almost 80% of JYPE's revenue was being brought in by 2PM. (Read some of their financial statements, it's pretty interesting) When your cash cow is going to be gone for 2 years, you probably 1) want to get the most out of them while you can and 2) make sure you have someone in place who could possibly recover any of the loss you'll have to take with the absence. The activities in Japan is generating quite a bit of revenue for them. Yes, it sucks that they're not in Korea more, but I can see why Japanese activities, from a business perspective, are lucrative for them.
I could also be talking out of my ass. I don't work for JYPE so I have no clue what the heck is going on over there.
There's always next year. Here's hoping that the scheduling is a little easier, that they won't get fucked over by people, that maybe they'll bring in fresh blood. The boys deserve love in Korea and I hope that they'll be able to get it soon.
P.S. You should totally write that thesis. The marketer in me got so frustrated at their lack of a true social footprint that I started working on a marketing plan for them as well. There are so many things they can do that they're not taking advantage of and it's very sad.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-08 12:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-08 01:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-08 05:23 am (UTC)but they lost many fans in korea.. before their debut in japan they had more than 200K fans in the fancafe (from what i remember) and now they have only 126K fans.
in 2011 hands up was #24 on yearly chart (it was good) i'm talking about digital sales here of course, and in 2013 ADTOY wasn't in top 100. their public relevance dropped too.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-09 12:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-11 06:43 pm (UTC)I don't want to start spewing things that is inaccurate and most things I've learn about them have been from people who have been around and know the group and the company well. I love JYPN and JYPE (still think that they're one of the best in terms of training and treatment of their artists) that said, I also know that they are a flawed company and often seem to be overlooking so many possible revenue generating opportunities for their artists.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-11 01:38 am (UTC)I see where you are coming from with the MV cancellations and how that affected the entire company's comeback and debut line-up. I actually had a lengthy argument with a commenter in omona that kept insisting the that the company should have had a plan B and should have not been affected this much by. It was a bit ridiculous because they kept insisting there was no evidence the director was at fault when the repercussions of his actions can be clearly seen.
Maybe I'll get around to writing it, even if it's not for my senior thesis. Might get a kick out of my thesis adviser since he happens to be South Korea, even his focus isn't entertainment lol
no subject
Date: 2015-08-07 10:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-08 05:15 am (UTC)I swear only GOT7 fans who are JYP stans shield JYP and think that Just Right promo was good and that japanese promo is a good idea ._.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-08 02:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-08 12:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-08 05:32 am (UTC)I know that usually idols get offers from shows and JYP can't do anything but it's true that JYP has no idea what to do to make them more popular to the public as a group.
We, GOT7 fans are worried about the group's future and music direction every time they make a comeback. It's a shame that they still haven't made it big in Korea and the fact that two new groups are going to debut under JYPE this year makes me even more worried :/
no subject
Date: 2015-08-08 01:13 am (UTC)I'm so confused by what his tactic here is. I get that if there's a commitment for the Japanese company, so why not just push back the Korean comeback so they're able to promote and find some footing by going on shows, etc? Maybe I'm just thinking too wishfully and not thinking about it from a business aspect.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-08 01:38 am (UTC)I've always wondered how their ventures in Japan works because it's always been fascinating to me that they're activities are so exclusive of each other. Like Japanese 2PM does not exist in the Korean mind and vice versa. I know that Sony/Epic distributes them, but they also have JYPE Japan. From what it looks like, it seems that their Japanese activities aren't as flexible as Korea. I also think that maybe because they have plans for the other comebacks and debuts they didn't want to overlap? (I know, I know, April was a shit show between Miss A and JYP. I don't know what happened there.)
P.S. I hope the first part didn't come off as bitchy. I rewrote it about 20 times trying to be as polite as possible haha. The JYP/JYPE thing is a common misconception people have.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-08 02:42 am (UTC)I assumed as much for the Japanese promotions, but it seems like their K-promotions were unexpectedly cut. It just felt like I got a glimpse of other JYP artists and I wasn't sure if that was how things have always been like this in terms of how they promote.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-08 03:11 am (UTC)There had already been talks about their promotional period getting cut short because of the whole MV debacle delaying 2PM. Although, I guess they also only had one week of music shows, didn't they? I think they had planned at least 3-4 weeks of promotions, but with schedules being pushed back and delayed they had to make due with what they had. And they have a bit in their pipeline, so I can understand why things were done they way they were. Not ideal, but what's better no Korean comeback, but Japanese activities or a short Korean comeback?