to wrap it up! jonghyun has a second conversation with a fan about... well, the same topic as last

[byeolbyeol.livejournal.com]

i feel like these are getting kind of redundant but it's seriously the last one and i figured: i made a post for the first conversation so it made sense to make one for the second. (i also want to help spead the translation because my friend spent a long, long time trying to get it all together). to rehash a bit: on july 12th jonghyun took to his sns accounts in an attempt to clear up accusations of him being misogynist. this led to him following two non-fans after they had tweeted at him criticisms of a comment he'd made on his radio show as a means to hold private conversations with them - which he okayed to be shared. you can find a long translation of the first conversation that he held here. the second conversation was uploaded late on july 13th kst and was translated today. and... yeah, everything is behind a cut because this conversation is even more (somehow) longer than the other. (tbh, it's because it's a much more casual conversation but still very interesting / important.) (note: this is the original post with his tweets, ect.)



[chen’s disclaimer]

hello. this is milsa. i use the nickname “chen”. (@enchenfd) on twitter, and i’m a feminist.

this post has been created with the goal of publicly archiving the message i shared with jonghyun-nim on twitter on july 12th, and the letter i sent him. the context leading up to this can be verified by reading jonghyun’s tweet and the 4 mentions i sent him in response. please read this only after full knowledge of the prior context.

all capture images of the twitter dm and letter have been uploaded with jonghyun-nim’s prior permission. any malicious secondary edits or sharing with removal of context is prohibited. if you intend to share the content of this post please write a comment and please indicate which method you are using to share the link to this post.

i had initially thought of only uploading the letter i sent to jonghyun-nim, but jonghyun-nim was concerned about distortion of context and proposed that i upload the direct message as well. i’m revealing the entire conversation that took place regarding this issue.

feedback can be given through email (ideophobia.lee@gmail.com) or as a comment on this post. i also welcome twitter messages if they’re short opinions within 140 characters. however, i will not be accepting feedback through twitter mentions as i’m concerned they’ll turn into meaningless wars. i hope you will understand.

(p.s. i added three captures that were cut off at the end of the dm on july 13th, 1:01 pm)

(p.s., july 13th, 4:35 pm - i want to clarify that the expression i used that “we joked around and had a great time” that keeps being brought up in the comments was not referring to the part of the conversation that i’ve captured and posted here. i said this in a mention to a friend when i was upset about seeing people talking about reporting my twitter account and blowing it up, and it was referring to the private conversation i had with jonghyun-nim after the message uploaded in this post. i deleted this mention after deciding it would cause unnecessary emotional expenditure. of course, i have no intention of publicly sharing said confidential conversation, which involves jonghyun-nim’s privacy and has no relation to the incident. i humbly accept the problems posed by my attitude and will self-reflect, but please refrain from maliciously distorting the truth.)

–

[chen’s original mentions to jonghyun]

@realjonghyun90: i don’t believe you said these remarks with ill intentions. however, i hope you know that since the dawn of history, the majority of leading artists’ perspectives of treating women as muses originated from seeing women as being unequal to them. to praise and worship women as existences that provide inspiration, is no different than scorning women as you are not treating them as equal human beings. and this is where the famous virgin- whore dichotomy comes from too. the love received by a muse is not a healthy love. that type of love impoverishes a person’s life. us women want to be loved as equal human beings and agents. we don’t want to be yearned for hastily, nor do we want to be revered. just treat us as another human being.


–

[chen and jonghyun’s direct message conversation.]
all commentary inserted by the translator are written in [square brackets].

jonghyun: hello! this is shinee jonghyun! it’s late, are you perhaps asleep…?

chen: hello jonghyun-nim. :-)

jonghyun: yes!

chen: you’re still up at such a late hour.

jonghyun: i always go to sleep late~!!ㅎ

chen: i’m worried that you might perhaps be going through distress…

jonghyun: after seeing your mention a lot of thoughts…

chen: i see, huhu.

jonghyun: crossed my mind~~^^. first off thank you.

chen: yes, i also thank you.

jonghyun: because each person has a different perspective in order to gain a little more understanding i wanted to ask you: i have a mother and sister and my reason for living is those two. so, i decided that i need an absolutely precise understanding about this incident that i myself [need to understand].

chen: indeed, jonghyun-nim..! you’re great..!!

jonghyun: and so… i thought there might be some things that i could ask you so i’m [messaging you] like this even though it’s late…

chen: not at all. thank you for messaging me.

jonghyun: yes ㅎㅎ. mm

chen: though it hasn’t been long, i too will reply to you sincerely to the best of my ability.

jonghyun: first off, the sentences that caused offense or words; what would they have been?

chen: first off, in the words you posted up…

jonghyun: y, yes.

chen: i don’t think there’s a specific part of it you could clearly point out and say, “this is a misogynist remark!”, and i also think it is indeed an issue of context.

jonghyun: yes.

chen: i didn’t listen to the whole broadcast so it’s hard for me to know the overall progression, but to my knowledge.

jonghyun: would it have been an issue of nuance? yes.

chen: the person who appeared as a guest was an artist.

jonghyun: yes.

chen: and it appeared that she wanted to speak about the predicaments of a female expert.

jonghyun: yes. for now, i’ll just listen to your thoughts and then i’ll re-explain the circumstances at the time!

chen: from the conversation you had on record, i felt like that part of it was brushed aside as not being very important, so i thought it was a shame. to me, it felt like she wanted to add some kind of commentary to the idea that" believe women are blessed, all artists get inspiration from women and create works,“ from the position of being a woman herself. and that’s probably not much different than the problem i perceived in your comment.

jonghyun: mm.

chen: first, i’ll listen to your explanation about the circumstances.

jonghyun: i see. i had perfectly understood the position of the guest. there were conversations we shared while the music was going out, that is, when we weren’t being broadcast. (s/n: this would have been BEFORE the part of the conversation that aired, while “girls in the city” was playing) she spoke out about the difficulties of being a female artist, and i agreed with her opinion on that part, and i believe i did so during the broadcast as well and…

chen: yes.

jonghyun: i have never said that all artists get inspiration from women and create their works. with the expression about “making poets write poetry, singers sing, painters paint” i meant that among those things [that inspire], there’s something about women that is a part of them. i didn’t wish for it to be interpreted as it solely being women [who inspire artists].

chen: in that context, i can agree with that.

jonghyun: poets can write poetry with women as their subjects, and even windows as their subjects. singers can sing as women, and also sing as men and painters too, of course. was it the part about saying “all artists” perhaps that made you uncomfortable?

chen: in my case..., mm, i believe there’s been a considerable tendency for women (compared to other objects, or living things) in particular to be revered as muses, from ancient to modern times, and that this kind of tendency is a problem.

jonghyun: i believe women can be inspired by women, and men can be inspired by men as well…, i’ve also heard that saying “all artists” only designates men, so i wanted to ask you if this is a universal thought. is it a problem to become a subject of inspiration??

chen: as jonghyun-nim said, anything can become a subject of inspiration and i don’t think that’s problematic in and of itself.

jonghyun: yes. then… which part would it be…

chen: merely, the history of women in particular being treated as an object that provides inspiration undoubtedly exists, and it’s the same in the present. i believe this part is problematic.

jonghyun: ah. yes. mm.

chen: under that kind of context, i think feminists probably…

jonghyun: yes, i believe that’s a problem as well.

chen: would have been quite shocked by your comment.

jonghyun: ah, i could it be that. i could come across as only seeing women as objects of inspiration? is that under the presumption that i’m using the term “muse” to allude to historical and artistic records that have built up until now?

chen: to be more precise, i think it was possible for you to be seen as being insensitive to the reality of gender inequality where women are given the role of an object that easily provides inspiration, and that you unconsciously affirmed this fact.

jonghyun: oh no.

chen: yes (to your last reply) [regarding the possible perception that jonghyun only sees women as objects of inspiration and that he was conscious of the historical connotations of “muse”]

jonghyun: [it’s a shame that] it was portrayed that way. yes, thank you. that absolutely wasn’t my intention and whether male or female. ah, i’ll probably be discussing a bit of a heavy topic. anyway, whether male or female…

chen: that’s alright. :-) yes.

jonghyun: i don’t believe either side is above the other and i also don’t see humans and animals as having an “upper-lower” hierarchy between them. the context in which i was speaking…

chen: yes.

jonghyun: i used the term “muse” because their existence in and of itself is beautiful (and this is the same for men as well), and because this beauty can be expressed whether through writing, art, or music

chen: (yes, i also believed you said those remarks in that kind of meaning.)

jonghyun: and what i said regarding the beauty of existence itself also goes for anything that has, or had, life. there are things that have life even if they don’t have a beating heart. an object steeped with precious memories would be like so…

chen: that’s right…, i agree.

jonghyun: anyway, in that sense, i’m someone who believes that human beings are not superior through their existences themselves, but that they can become superior through growth.

chen: i’m happy that you think that way. i feel the same way.

jonghyun: in any case, the conversation from that day because we couldn’t resolve it by going through each sentence at a time as it was a situation where music was the focal point. do you think that’s the reason things came to this point? or is it possible that i have a perspective that sees women as being lesser because of the history and social atmosphere i learned throughout the course of growing up.

chen: mm…, this is a difficult issue [for me to comment on].

jonghyun: to…

chen: i don’t believe you perceive women as lesser beings. i have always thought you’re an honorable person who fundamentally strives to be respectful to other people.

jonghyun: converse seriously like this, or…, yes.

chen: the conversation at the time was also probably during radio broadcast.

jonghyun: yes, i remember the radio broadcast as being live.

chen: if it’s the case that it was live broadcast.. then even more so, i think there would have been some degree of difficulty in leading the talk in the right direction. also, on a different note, i personally believe that this country makes it difficult for people to live practicing righteousness. i think there’s too much we don’t know about those who are weaker than us [in society], and i think we often face situations where we commit indecencies as we keep growing more and more ignorant. so, i think men don’t understand women well; able-bodied people don’t understand the disabled well; people who have homes don’t understand the homeless well; and so i think whether the intentions were good or bad, people can sometimes cause harm without even knowing it.

jonghyun: yes.

chen: moreover, when it comes to doing something wrong i don’t think it’s important whether the act was done with good intentions or bad intentions. although in jonghyun-nim’s case, to call it a “wrong” feels like an overexaggeration, and i believe it was more of a slip of the tongue.

jonghyun: so, you’re saying that from a woman’s perspective, my remarks felt like i was objectifying them, and some people could have felt offended. mm.

chen: yes, i think that was possible.

jonghyun: i understand what kind of context that is very well. that wasn’t my intention, so it’s a pity.

chen: thank you for listening.

jonghyun: yes. ^^

chen: it’s a shame, but i don’t think it could be helped.

jonghyun: i respect women and love them. that is [the attitude] my family taught me [to have] and because it’s the group with the same sex as my mother and my sister. my feelings of respect and love are doubled.

chen: yes. :-)

jonghyun: i see all humans as being equal but because it was my personal family upbringing or say, process of growth, that formed this view. i had personally thought of this as a point of pride. but since i’m not in the position of a woman i think i didn’t realize that i needed to express admiration of beauty or the blessing of existence with a little more explanation.

chen: i see…

jonghyun: after speaking with you, i think my curiosity has been settled to some degree. mm.

chen: if my words were even a little bit helpful, it’s a relief and i’m happy.

jonghyun: it’s regrettable. if there are many people who think the way you do it’s to the point where i wish i could tell each and every one of them that it wasn’t my intention. there are cases where women also create art with women as their muses…, and there are also many cases where men also have men as their muses.

chen: that’s right.

jonghyun: the restriction of the term “muse” itself is also regrettable.

chen: that would be an area that will need to be changed by history from here on out.

jonghyun: i wasn’t trying to allude to the dictionary or historical meanings [of “muse”]. yes, it was a pleasure speaking to you. ^^ i hope the misunderstanding gets resolved.

chen: yes it was a pleasure for me too! mm…, in my opinion i think it might even be good to write a simple post that explains your intention.

jonghyun: ㅎㅎ no, no. many peop… people are already in sorrow. if i keep putting up more posts, i think it’ll be hard for me to handle whatever comes beyond that. although that’d probably be the same for anyone. my personality is the type where i have a lot of thoughts and burrow deep down into them so…

chen: i think the position you’re in must be quite unmanageable…

jonghyun: so, it isn’t easy for me to say something again myself but with this incident…

chen: yes, i understand.

jonghyun: i couldn’t just stand by and do nothing. although i’ve lost the chance to wholly explain myself in any case i’ve been freed from the dishonor of being a misogynist so i’m satisfied with that.

chen: you suffered through a lot of heartache…

jonghyun: if i go further than this it will make my fans sad. because i’m neither a social activist nor a human rights activist…, it’s challenging for me to make everyone understand!

chen: ^_^

jonghyun: in any case, i’ve realized that the use of the term “muse” or the part of the conversation that went on air that day should have been communicated with a little more specificity. thanks to the things that you told me i’ve learned which words, which sentences that women could have heard and felt offended by that i didn’t foresee.

chen: thank you. and i’m happy.

jonghyun: to chen-nim as well,

chen: i just think, if jonghyun-nim and other people can gain an opportunity to think about feministic sensibilities through this incident, that’s enough. i think the world will become that much better for it. yes?

jonghyun: i would like to apologize.

chen: i’m fine :)

jonghyun: ^^

chen: along with putting up kang eunha (s/n: the bisexual transgender woman who put up an open letter at her university) nim’s hand-written poster as your profile pic that time

jonghyun: it was a poetic expression meant to comfort her wounds. i didn’t know that it would come across as more hurtful. ㅎㅎ. yes

chen: really, i… have always thought that it’s fortunate someone like you exists.

jonghyun: ㅎㅎ

chen: i will always support and root for you.

jonghyun: no, no. thank you~~^^. this world is full of things to learn from.

chen: you’re right.

jonghyun: anyway, at this late hour: i’m sorry.

chen: i think i also might unknowingly commit violence to those who are at a weaker position than me, so i need to always stay alert and study.

jonghyun: i hope you’ll hurry and get some rest. ^^^)

chen: it’s ok. ^^ i also don’t sleep much late at night so…

jonghyun: i see. ㅎㅎ. ok. ^^

chen: it’s very late but i hope you’ll get plenty of rest. :-)

jonghyun: ah, you don’t have to keep our conversation a secret, just in case you have a reason to quote it later on. if there’s any content you want to share it’s ok to put my name in. what we talked about today.

chen: i thank you deeply for your consideration.

jonghyun: ~~^^. no, it’s nothing. there’s nothing in the conversation for me to be ashamed of either. that’s all. ㅎㅎ

chen: yes, heheh.

jonghyun: take care!

chen: yes, please get some rest!

–

[chen’s letter to jonghyun - paraphrased]

after the end of their dm conversation, chen sent jonghyun a letter that she wrote on her phone, in which she summarizes which statements she felt were most problematic, and reiterates why it’s unfair for women to be singled out as objects of inspiration and that a woman must be loved as just another human being (instead of being loved only for her gender).

she says she was touched by the message jonghyun sent her and received strength and hope from it. and that his desire to understand his wrongdoing and to self-reflect and try to fix it is exemplary.

she hopes for a world where the term ‘muse’ can be considered as simply "an existence that inspires" and is rid of its historical disgrace, and believes jonghyun will be part of that world when it comes.

in the letter, she refers to these tweets of hers that state her opinion on muses:

@enchenfd: when treating someone as a muse you naturally go through a process of highlighting specific elements about that object and erasing the rest. i believe artists need to be self-aware that this is a type of commodification and objectification and that it inevitably strips away [the muse’s] humanity. as someone who is a creator as well, i also don’t want to condemn artists’ commodification and objectification of humans as being an unconditionally bad thing, but i believe there needs to be an effort to maintain an appropriate line. and that these are the ethics [that should be followed by] artists.




source(s): @realjonghyun90, @enchenfd (i), @sullaem (translation)

this has been an, overall, interesting ride, lmao. i think i learned a lot from it too, tbh. it's really nice to see a conversation like this (and the other) happen with an idol. it's so rare.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn2oij also editing this in. it's information on quilsa (the first person jjong had a convo with) and how she's not... really as cool as she deemed. :/ disappointing.

Comments

[scheisse.livejournal.com]

It's weird seeing an idol be so... human?

I like how he handled it.

[mamamoos.livejournal.com]

thanks for posting all this op! and to the translator obv!

[sra-interesante.livejournal.com]

yeah ... this got a really dumb beginning but it was interesting seeing how jjong turned this in a opportunity to debate a bit

[kiku-cha8-8.livejournal.com]

i was wondering if the second shawol was going to post their conversation. i'm glad she did! this has been an interesting ride, and i'm really happy that jonghyun actually took it upon himself to converse with his fans in a mature and intelligent way.

[love-keiko.livejournal.com]

this is VERY interesting.

i wasn't around when this initially blew up on omona and i still want to re-read ALL of this for greater understanding but i think i got the gist.

i just need to say tho---this shit right here:

because each person has a different perspective in order to gain a little more understanding i wanted to ask you: i have a mother and sister and my reason for living is those two. so, i decided that i need an absolutely precise understanding about this incident that i myself [need to understand]

indicates some high level self awareness that not a lot of men have so i am so utterly impressed by jonghyun rn.

regarding the issue of "muse" i think it's hard to put this in to words if u havent really studied art history, or have a general understand of issues of female agency/autonomy. i STILL feel like something is being lost in translation but given the context i THINK i can see where the issue is coming from.

i'm really surprised and annoyed by how many ppl were brushing off this incident as "reaching" and then breaking their necks to disparage "SJWs" in the first post. ya'll need to be careful with how u use those terms. just because u dont UNDERSTAND doesnt mean someone is reaching.

i REALLY wish i could find my syllabus from my art history class freshmen year. i'm mad i cant remember the details but we DID talk about the image of women as muses and how that shift is a MUCH later historical development than most ppl think. it was originally male bodies that were considered more beautiful, more inspirational, and often portrayed in the nude. but in addition to that sensuality there was a POWER that the male muse owned (not always tho---especially when it came to young boys *sighs*) that shone in the work. but it's because of that shift in WHO a muse can be (artistically speaking) the word ultimately ends of being gendered (skewed female) and heteronormative (skewed male gazing upon female).

language doesnt exist in a bubble ya'll. the DEFINITION of a muse and how we socially understand what a muse is (see also how they r portrayed in media like film, television, literature, fine art, etc) can very well differ in meaning.

there r FAR too many images of women as muses that have ended up badly (i'm thinking of alfred hitchcock and tippie hedren, rn) mostly because the standards that women r held to r from the ideal up. many many times artists focus on the image that they WANT and disregard any other traits that humanize women as anything LESS than the ideal. and often times women who are/were seen as muses were in positions of less power, not just because of their gender, but sometimes also due to social and economical status.

i mean i could go on forever, i just felt the need to state the above for clarity sake.

i am HELLA impressed by this discussion, tho. not saying that feminism doesnt exist on SK but it seems like we rarely get any discussion about it in the media and u NEVER get an idols perspective on it in such specific terms. ESPECIALLY male idols. like female idols may hint at it but i feel like the public would crucify them for directly referencing it. and so because of that i feel like i'd rather listen closely and try to gain understanding than to be dismissive and call it "reaching" to protect a fave.

which isn't to say jonghyun is the devil or whatever. or that he intentionally did anything wrong. but seeing as ultimately, the disagreement over this issue is in regards to the impact of what he said i feel like if jonghyun was insightful enough to revisit this topic and ask for clarity, then maybe fans should be more understanding too.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_clochette_/]

fellow art history grad and yeah, this is something that is more difficult to explain than it feels like it should be. I feel like
male gaze is similar; tumblr has this idea of what it means that is actually not grounded in any critical theory and it is endlessly frustrating to me. I think people dismiss these ideas as being pretty esoteric (our whole discipline gets that treatment) or unimportant but I honestly think understanding how humans have made and used images, historically and today, can teach us way more than many people seem to estimate. the insight into how societies are structured and their values given to us by the images they create is actually huge.

I think with regard to muses that people with a contemporary mindset sometimes see a piece of art that has a female "subject" and if it's an even borderline positive portrayal they look at it as being okay, or even as being quite female-centric; they don't take into account necessarily the various cultural assumptions that are coded in the portrayal, especially where it's a historical and not a contemporary work or it comes from another culture. untangling those assumptions is actually fairly difficult. it's an odd situation.

[dreamer-easy.livejournal.com]

i'm really surprised and annoyed by how many ppl were brushing off this incident as "reaching" and then breaking their necks to disparage "SJWs" in the first post. ya'll need to be careful with how u use those terms. just because u dont UNDERSTAND doesnt mean someone is reaching.

I was concerned by that too. There's an awful lot of certainty in the comments in omona, whether it's "idol X is a transphobic racist sexist!!!" or "idol X is pure as the driven snow, you SJWs!!!" - often based on a single remark, often an ambiguous or confusing remark translated from a language most of us here don't know.

I'm grateful to Jjong, the fan, and the translator for this lengthy, detailed discussion, and especially for Jonghyun's willingness to listen and learn (is that a Korean thing, I wonder, vs a Western thing?).

Now I want to know what the Korean word for "problematic" is! :)

[byeolbyeol.livejournal.com]

kind of related but: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn2oij the translation answered a question on quilsa (the person jonghyun had the first conversation with) and it's pretty interesting / a bit shocking to me to see the contrast between the tone that she used in their conversation and... everywhere else.

both conversations were pretty similar but i think this one resonated with me more because it was more casual and seemed a little more... personal? if that makes sense.

[sra-interesante.livejournal.com]

she even answered that "are you lee taemin??" question lol
(good to know she's not)
also.... i can see people overanalyzing whatever she tweets and bombarding her with questions ... poor girl

[natywentz.livejournal.com]

he's so human,so fragil.....im always scared of someone hurting him :/

[ggumd.livejournal.com]

he's 25 not 10

[atopworld.livejournal.com]

Definitely going to read this later. It's nice that he opens himself to have meaningful conversations with fans.

[zeysech.livejournal.com]

This is interesting.

I mean, I dislike kind of... how this came about, if that makes sense? Because people were reacting so extremely (either in saying there's absolutely nothing wrong with the statement or in saying it's completely misogynistic) to this statement that was not an extreme statement at all.

Like, if it hadn't been for the reactions that had prompted these conversations, I wouldn't say Jonghyun "made a mistake" or was "apologizing for problematic behavior". I'd saying he was learning and gaining a new perspective, for the better.

[chibi-rei.livejournal.com]

I'm gonna have to go back thru these posts and read them because even I need to understand all the views on this.
This turned out to be a bigger issue than I thought it would, but I'm glad he reached out and listened to what people had to say.

[maghishaw.livejournal.com]

man i just saw this thing and it is really funny, because while it doesn't makes the point any less valid it really goes to show how most people are so ready to jump on idols neck while pulling worse shit on daily bases

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn2oij
(if anyone is gonna ask for recipes on this than ask for recipes on everything because the person who wrote this is the same who translated all the talks between jonghyun and those girls)

i can't believe i was praising this girl yesterday lmao like i get she would be pissed after she called jonghyun out because i'm sure shawols are not gonna leave her be but she has been saying shit like that from long before

[undeniablysarah.livejournal.com]

+1 I am disappointed.

[adlyeith.livejournal.com]

I'm really impressed by how he handled this, and I'm forever amazed that idols that are 5-10+ years older than him don't have even a half of the maturity and self-awareness that he showed throughout this whole thing. I hope other people can look at him as an example of how to respond to scandals or outcrys from fans in the future, it would certainly go a long way for some relatively problematic idols.

[velveteenkitten.livejournal.com]

He is so mature, and I don't quite know why that blows my mind.

He is a man, and as such will never truly understand all the tiny shitty things that women throughout history have had to and still have to go through. How could he when even us women have to fight our internalized misogyny?
But Jonghyun comes across as a genuine man who genuinely tries to understand all points of view, and the struggle women face, and that's all I can ask for really. He made a poor choice of words, I think, and we all do that at some point.
He had a very reasoned, calm and mutually understanding conversation with a fan (or fans), apologized, and clearly feels mortified (at least is seems that way from the way he writes).

Words are a tricky business because so many of them have deep, deep roots in misogyny (and other types of hate) and so if we believe in equality for everyone we have to be super careful of the words we use and in which context. And that's not always possible because often we're only thinking of the point we're trying to make instead of all the possible interpretations of it. I don't know if I'm explaining this properly.

Anyway, he handled this wonderfully and of his own accord (no SM involvement anywhere, as companies are so fond of butting in and either issuing a blanket apology or sweeping it under the rug), so major kudos for that.

He has always come across to me as a reasonable, socially aware person and the way he has responded to this shows that, I think.

[iigoru.livejournal.com]

IA with everything.

And that's not always possible because often we're only thinking of the point we're trying to make instead of all the possible interpretations of it. I don't know if I'm explaining this properly.

sf true. Great comment.

[winegums.livejournal.com]

He's acquitted himself really well through all these exchanges, good for him for being a good person and going to such lengths to try and understand what might potentially have caused offence. That's more than any idol has ever done, and extraordinary considering how most of them grow up in the idol system (I don't think nuanced awareness of social issues is really among the things SM trains them in - this is all him).

[haaruhiii.livejournal.com]

"or is it possible that i have a perspective that sees women as being lesser because of the history and social atmosphere i learned throughout the course of growing up."

Even as a woman this is a question I have to ask myself time to time. Society is a scary thing.

[iigoru.livejournal.com]

i have a mother and sister and my reason for living is those two. so, i decided that i need an absolutely precise understanding about this incident that i myself [need to understand]

Too precious. He sounds so curious that I'm hoping he'll educate himself even more and be actually perfect. Marry me right now.

[ohmontauk.livejournal.com]

He is very mature and I like that he took the time to understand this issue and ask what it is with his comment that people had a problem with.

But I don't like how he keeps reiterating that his mom and sister are women.

[queenhinata.livejournal.com]

Yeah I noticed that too. I think he keeps mentioning his mom/sister since he lived with only them for most his life (father not present) so he sees his life and outlook as being shaped by women. (But ofc there are plenty of misoynists raised by women, lives' shaped by women etc yet are are awful to women... Eh)

[queenhinata.livejournal.com]

It was nice to read the conversations between Jonghyun and the two feminists. I wish I could hear/read more of Jonghyun's thoughts about topics like this! After this situation, I have even more respect for him (...and more disappointment toward the fans/ppl who immediately were defense or caplocked SJW!!!!!1. rme&smh).

[adenar.livejournal.com]

idk how other people feel but i get the impression from these exchanges that he's struggling with the view 'i love women, and want them to be happy, safe and equal' versus admitting 'raised in a partiarchal society, it is hard for me to spot the subtle ways women are put down or placed lower than men, especially when these are phrased as positives i.e women are special, born inspirational, etc' which, to be fair, is something we all struggle with, men and women alike. You don't realise that actually some of the ways in which you want to praise women ultimately hurt them, and it's difficult to admit that you've done that (especially if you're stubborn as fuck like me). It's a lot more difficult to point out exactly what might be wrong with that ideology because you're not being sexist in the harmful, abrasive way we normally associate with the word, and you're dealing with much more complex feminist theory. Anyway I think these girls have gone a long way to helping Jonghyun with the aforementioned conflict of ideas, and I hope that Jonghyun's learned a lot. It's definitely really nice to see an idol reaching out to fans like this (an idol from sm, no less!) so I hope it comes to something.

in my ~innocent youth~ i dated a dude who'd been on a 'gentleman's course' and spouted about how women were special and otherworldly because only they could bring life and needed to be protected and revered and put on a pedestal blah blah, and it was hard to wean him off some of his ideas. Even now i struggle to really put it into words so sorry if this post seems vague, I really need to go and actually /read/ some proper feminist theory or at least go back through my tumblr's feminism tag (omona user adenar confirmed for #sjw!!!!!), haha.

[maghishaw.livejournal.com]

+1

[seulgibear.livejournal.com]

this has been really interesting and informative. i didn't understand at first why people found offence form the statement, but it's definitely very clear now. i am really proud at how maturely he handled it and hope he took something from these conversations.

he also made a good point with this: "because i’m neither a social activist nor a human rights activist…, it’s challenging for me to make everyone understand!"
celebs are not activists or totally educated on social issues, so this whole thing with jumping on them and 'disowning' them as soon as they've (possibly unconsciously) said something iffy is tiring. people make mistakes and they can grow from them, if helped. i can only wish more fans react like these people did and try to reach out to them to educate instead of telling them to die or whatever.

[wishesgranted.livejournal.com]

"...celebs are not activists or totally educated on social issues, so this whole thing with jumping on them and 'disowning' them as soon as they've (possibly unconsciously) said something iffy is tiring."

ITA. One of the difficult things about the internet and SNS, IMO, is that so often people/celebs/idols are reduced to sound bites. Humans are imperfect and while sometimes it's necessary to write people off because they're fundamentally terrible, it's concerning to me that some are thrown aside when they've merely made a stupid mistake or said something thoughtless. Not that they should be excused from criticism, but a lot of times it feels like people either want to shield them completely or burn them at the stake. We need middle ground and honest critique and opportunities for people who are willing, to learn and do better.

[gray-fairy.livejournal.com]

I'm glad he's willing to have these conversations and learn more about these topics but this is getting indeed a bit redundant already. Plus I'm really dissapointed with the fact that the first woman he had the conversation with turned to be such an asshole. You can't really trust anyone tbh.

[bubblyshades.livejournal.com]

How is this discussion becoming redundant? Talking about feminism and women's rights is a discussion that needs to happen everyday, along with discussions on racism and ableism and classism and other social justice issues that impact people's everyday lives. It can get draining for sure because of how heavy the topics are, but redundant?

I'm disappointed in Quilsa, but her comments do not negate how she thoughtfully engaged with Jonghyun.

[audiograms.livejournal.com]

Honestly I think this has all shown that artists and fans/commenters can have meaningful converations and understand each other. I am glad Jjong listened, and acknowledged the offense, instead of just doing a non apology. I'm also glad he realised to stay n his lane, and that Chen spoke so eloquently and explained herself really clearly.