omonatheydid | follow up! jjong converses with a fan about misogyny, ect. ect. (it's long)

byeolbyeol.livejournal.com posting in

no fancy picture or anything. but: this is a follow up to the post i made yesterday about jonghyun clarifying on accusations of him being misogynist. tl;dr: he basically had a fan (maybe? they may just be a fan of taemin though) of shinee take up on his offer to voice out their opinion on what had been said and he ended up following them / having a private conversation with them on twitter - which he okayed to be shared and she later did so. it’s a very, very long conversation and, because of that, i’m not going to be have photos of the screencapped conversation attached above to the post but you can find them here: i / ii / iii / iv. (note: jonghyun has unfollowed both now but you can find proof of the follows here.) the translation of the abridged conversation is behind the cut!

[disclaimer posted by @quilliticy in preface to their private conversation with jonghyun.]

hello. i’m a user who uses the nickname “quilsa” on twitter.

1) first, this image is feedback on the mentions that i sent raising issues to kim jonghyun (@realjonghyun90) nim on saturday, july 11th, 2015 around 10pm. at first i had no intention of expressing my stance publicly, as i had thought that all the tweets i’ve posted up until now, including the mentions i’ve sent and received, are strictly personal. however, because i thought it would be meaningful to publicly reveal the sincere feedback from the person directly involved with raising the problem, and my replies to them, i’m compiling and posting the parts that were relatively well organized. (ie: in terms of discoure) naturally, much of the context has been removed, and i have no plans from here on out to respond to any indrect inferences or misreadings about parts that don’t appear in the images.

2) i also want to state clearly that all of this has been excerpted / edited with the permission of kim jonghyun-nim.

3) and, at the time of writing all of my dms that have been posted here, i strived to make suggestions as a third party “twitter feminiest”, but the objectivity is limited by the fact that i personally compiled this, and while it’s a secondary round of feedback regarding celebrity kim jonghyun-nim, i also have a more or less personal objective of responding to the countless tweets personally attacking me right now, so it may be self-defensive to some degree. i want to establish these limitations clearly.

[@quilliticy ’s abridged dm conversation with jonghyun.]

[direct message from jonghyun]

jonghyun: hello, this is jonghyun! it’s late, perhaps you are asleep…. i’m the head of the household in my family, with a mother and a sister. so i love and respect women, who are the same sex as my sister and mother, who are my reasons for living. i don’t believe in an upper-and-lower hierarchy between men and women, and i don’t believe there is one between humans and animals either. (s/n: in case people misinterpret this, he’s speaking ideologically — that he wishes all living beings would be treated equally. please read on.) i’m someone who believes one can only grow through learning. i believe every “thing” that possesses life is equal, and that thing we call “life” is the same even for things without a heartbeat. for instance, a photo of a precious memory, or an unwavering volition or dream, i believe all of these things have a “life force” as well. however [the words] that were spread between people today—

quilliticy: yes, i think what you just spoke of is revealed a lot through your usual tweets too, although it hasn’t been very long since i followed you, jonghyun-nim ^^. yes yes

jonghyun: throughout my conversation [with nine]…, the most sensitive part. which part would it be?

quilliticy: mm.. the term between me seeing that screencap [of the conversation between jonghyun and nine] and the explanation you posted on twitter wasn’t very long, so i can’t say it’s this for sure, (this is completely just my opinion) the reaction on my timeline, honestly.. there was a discrepancy in the topics of conversation among the people you and i follow~ so if i just speak to you solely about that screencap itself. i just found the file right now and in the middle of it you broke the silence with the terms “blessed existence,” right? but mm.. the perspective itself of seeing women as some kind of object of worship, something of value that must be pursued, etc. reveals that first, you’re unwilling to treat them as an agent equal to yourself. you spoke about your mother and sister ~ (this is absolutely not an attack on you personally, i want to make it clear that i’m just bringing up a problem within this deduction) you see, maternal instincts also become framed the same way. it isn’t possible to deny becoming ‘a blessed subject that gives inspiration to others.’ but, the majority of the “maternal instinct-framework” otherizes only women as “muses”; and women who are creators of discourse, women who speak — strictly speaking from that screencap, turning women into existences that make people “write poetry, paint pictures, and sing” — that is, to deny the fact that women also are human beings who speak with agency and to define them as a kind of beautiful nature, sculpture, music, an object that draws out those sensibilities, i want to point out that this is the reason that screencap is causing controversy. you used the term “muse”, i saw a tweet that said it’s already been 4~50 years since [women] began to directly make the existence of “female creators [of art] as active agents who reject becoming models or muses” their agenda, and actively asserting it. in a creative field that still can’t help but be male supremacist, it’s my viewpoint that it isn’t possible for a term like ‘muse’ to be completely value-neutral. and this is something i also feel as a female creator in a different field.

jonghyun: the expression “muse” wasn’t a term used to allude to records of history or art. the meaning was that they are existences that give inspiration and i’ve used this to refer to men as well, i personally did an interview where i said i wrote a song with my members as my muses. the expression that “all poets write poetry, make music, paint pictures” was a poetic expression. if i were to substitute this in a realistic way, female poets also write works with women as their subjects, and it’s the same for female musicians and female artists as well. both men and women can be situated as muses, and it’s my belief that rather than “existing as muses,” “all things that exist” can become muses. i mentioned something earlier about “life” right. everything that possesses life can become muses. it’s the same with [inanimate] objects; the historical and dictionary definitions may differ, but i thought that the social meaning had already fallen into the category that i’m thinking of. at the time of the radio, there was a female artist in front of me and i listened to the predicaments of female artists as the song was going out. that part wasn’t broadcast. afterward, the conversation that’s being talked about at the moment went back and forth. i wanted to comfort her and since it was a music program to add to the explanation about the music. they were remarks meant to embrace her wounds in an overall poetic expression. it wasn’t meant to disregard [women’s] agency or only use them as subjects so i was disheartened that the interpretation took that direction.

quilliticy: i understand what you’re talking about. however, i’ve already revealed this, but all i did was take that one screencap and publicize my opinion through a mention (because you yourself revealed publicly that you’d like to gather opinions) that “worship of women” and “hatred of women” are just a hair’s breadth away from each other, it wasn’t a comment solely directed at you personally. i’m not even your acquaintance, so it’s not like i have the channel to say that to you either. i simply couldn’t leave it in the form of a comment as i don’t have an instagram account. and misogyny and gender are unrelated. i see a lot of misogyny from very many creators, and. of course, i also love beautiful women, and gain inspiration from them often. but that isn’t because they are female, or because they were born as blessed existences, but because they reflect as being beautiful in my visual brain. i of course gain inspiration from listening to shinee’s music, and i’ve also drawn fanart a few times before. but even as i consume those things, i always strive to stay person-to-person, and i don’t just regard [people like you] as a subject i love one-sidedly, or as a subject that “provides me with something.” and i’ve never thought of this as hatred, either. i want to make it clear that just because you consume a subject, doesn’t mean it should be regarded as hatred. also about your remarks regarding the historical - dictionary [definitions], i don’t believe you were alluding to those things either. i also condemn the people who are concluding that you’re a misogynist solely based on that term (ie muse) and condemning you, rather than criticizing you. but language is a social thing. it can’t be consumed in a solely personal context. even more so if they’re words that were spread out through a public channel. the comment about not being born to be a blessed existence — from the perspective of writing this i think there’s a possibility it could be misread, so i’ll elaborate on this. just as we don’t regard someone’s existence as being more special and beautiful because they are ”male“, i think there is no need for women to be seen as especially more blessed, or special, or beautiful just because they are female. i completely understand that you weren’t talking about outer beauty, but truthfully, that term (ie: muse) itself holds the premise of ”personal charm/appeal.“ but what about women who can’t give inspiration to others? there are many different minority preferences in the world, but what about people who veer far from the majority and don’t appear attractive to the majority? (this is not to disparage them, but) for example, what about a woman who has a visible disability?

jonghyun: i see there really was cause for misunderstanding then if we’re to look at it that way the part i referred to as being a blessing was the existence itself. i referred to the fact of [something] possessing life as being a blessing; it wasn’t inner / outer beauty. that was the reason i could designate all poets just as all poets have different preferences, i meant to say that simply through their existence themselves they could become inspiration to someone’s eyes and to just turn inner / outer beauty into imagery is not the product of inspiration. for instance: pictures of bizarre forms, or perhaps music that builds fear, writing that gives you goosebumps because of the brightness given off by a term like ”blessing“. i see too much importance could have been attached to ”beauty“. just as we don’t only sing about happiness, even if you aren’t a beautiful woman or being that receives the assent of the majority, you can still rouse inspiration. that was what i meant with the comments about the blessing of existence.

quilliticy: of course, i understand what you’re saying. i also get a lot of inspiration from creepy things, things that create self-loathing, the negative sides that anyone can possess, and i love artists who never cease to absorb such things and express themselves.

jonghyun: so, in some ways, when something travels outward through personal interpretation, i see it could differ from social interpretation. about the struggles of women, mm.i think the direction of interpretation became very different. i see it was interpreted that way.

quilliticy: yes, yes. i definitely saw the part where you said you agreed [with nine’s perspective], and i don’t think of that part in a negative light at all. merely, (and of course i’m sure you’re aware from experiencing this far more than me). among the demographics of people who consume the media you appear on, it can’t be denied that a large part of the pie is women in their 10’s- 20’s — that is, women who are at the age that’s easily exposed to “female-objectification-misogyny,” and to follow, your utterance with ”women“ as your subject on a public channel has a larger ripple effect than you think, and is easy to be misread. and i think ”muse“ (as used in an utterance about female subjects) has yet to become completely gender-neutral. to be honest, i don’t think it’s at all necessary for you to claim responsibility for every one of these issues. as you said, people learn, and if you yourself accepted this in the correct way then there’s no need to provide explanations to illiterate people. nor do consumers have the right to demand that. i looked at the screencap again, and if i were to pick out the terms that have the potential to cause problems, “blessed existence,” “the existence that gives inspiration to all artists is women” (this is a completely different utterance than saying ”i get inspired by women.“ it doesn’t get read (ie: interpreted subjectively) in the context of personal preferences).

jonghyun: the interpretation of comments could take many different forms so i’ve come to the thought that i need to have a little more consideration [for others]. (…) because it’s a music program, i didn’t have time to explain the reasoning for my expression in a long, long way, and because of that it must have left room for misunderstanding. (…) not at all. ^^ i was just curious about which part became a wound, and what i need to do in order not to inflict that kind of wound again. i don’t believe i’m a wrong / wicked person, and i think it’s only right to apologize if someone was hurt. ㅎㅎ not at all, today just from your replies today you helped plenty. many people speak in different ways and sometimes hurt others, regardless of intent. i inflicted a wound on someone, and because i didn’t want to do it again. i wanted to hear your thoughts.

–

the statement jonghyun made toward the end — “i don’t believe i’m a wrong / wicked person” — does NOT mean that he doesn’t believe he did anything wrong or made any mistakes, so please don’t misconstrue his words. jonghyun used the expression “잘못된 사람 (jalmotdoen saram),” which means a person who is fundamentally bad, unrighteous, wicked, headed down the wrong path, etc. this is a distinctly different expression from “잘못한 사람 (jalmothan saram),” which means someone who has committed a wrong.

jonghyun was very clearly willing to listen to and own up to whatever mistakes @quilliticy pointed out in his original wording, and was genuinely remorseful for the fact that his words – regardless of his intended meaning – hurt even a single person who was listening to him. not only that, but he views this incident as another lesson for him to better himself and become more aware. i really think these excerpts just speak for themselves and there is nothing to defend or shield.

source(s): @sullaem (i / ii), @quilliticy (i), @realjonghyun90 (i)

i think it’s kind of a breath of fresh air knowing that jonghyun was not only willing to open up the topic for discussion but actually held a discussion on it with a fan of shinee in order to be helped to understand why what he had said had offended her / to try and better himself and avoid conflict in the future in regards to the topic. like the dude doesn't deserve a pat on the back for being decent / opening up to learning but it's such a rare thing to see from an idol. also, mods! ignore the last post i made. i figured this one was better put together (maybe).

Page 1 of 2 << [1] [2] >>

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

wishesgranted.livejournal.com

How old is this kid? Google says 25? I don't really follow Shinee that closely and don't know much about him, but his willingness to have a dialogue about this and the way he genuinely tried to understand the issue is so lovely and kind. He really seems like a good person.

Bless his mom for raising a son with so much self-awareness.

From:

jrt131n.livejournal.com

Yeah he turned 25 a couple of months ago.

I thin Jonghyun is honestly the type of person that if he hurts someone with out realizing it, he will own up to it and apologize quickly because he isn't the type that likes hurting people and seeing others hurt.

endless charms, endless possibilities

follow up! jjong converses with a fan about misogyny, ect. ect. (it's long)

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags