Is KPop as Queer as it Appears to be?

[uledy.livejournal.com]

Author’s Note: Before I moved to South Korea, I was a professional LGBT activist in New York City. I am not Korean and I was raised in America. This post is not a comprehensive guide to LGBTQ issues in Korean culture.

Korea is a conservative country, abortion is not legal, comprehensive sexual education is a thing of the future, pornography is censored and the queer community is so invisible that it is often times only found in hidden unmarked bars and jimjilbangs. I went to Seoul Pride this year, which was touted as the biggest LGBTQ affirming celebration in Korea. Let’s just say it left a lot to be desired. People wore masks to cover their face and armbands asking not to be photographed by the media, for fear of being outted. A massive protest was staged and more Christian fundamentalist protesters were present than actual participants in the celebration. Hundreds of protesters laid in the street blocking the floats for the parade and eventually caused the parade to be canceled. An intense police presence was there and because of their violent behavior, took many of the protestors away.


While I was researching for this article, I interviewed several Korean queer people about their coming out experience, one woman laughed at me and said “What coming out experience?” To her, the idea of being out to her family was so impossible that the mere thought was outrageous. Another person told me that one day she’d find a gay man to marry, they’d have kids and please their families while continuing to have same sex romances on the side. At this point in the conversation, my jaw was agape and I was stunned into a silence. Being from a country that is relatively accepting of LGBT people, the idea of marrying to please my family is so far out of my scope of reality that it was hard for me to grasp.

The attitude towards LGBTQ people is diverse and varied in Korea. In Korea, many people have never met an openly LGBT person so their ideas on queer culture are mostly theoretical and based on what they see in the media. The queer community is so underground that gayness is often not even thought of as a possibility. The impact of this lack of concrete understanding is evident in the statistics collected about sexual minority students. The Survey on Sexual Minority Students’ Human Rights in Seoul shows that nearly 77% of LGBTQ students have had suicidal ideations and more than 58% have made a suicide attempt. While many young people are struggling to find acceptance, many older people believe that “homosexuality is a western illness” brought to Korea during the Korean War in 1945. The younger generation is slowly coming around to the idea of queerness, but Korea lags well behind the rest of the affluent countries in the world in LGBTQ acceptance.

While many people in Korea do not openly discuss queer culture, if you peel back the shiny façade of Korea and know what to look for you can find it. Undeniably, South Korea’s KPop Idols are taking over the Asian music scene. The idols and their androgynous fashion have created a space for the traditionally queer aesthetic. “Flower boys” or men with particularly feminine featured are considered highly attractive in East Asia. In an effort to bank on this attraction, many Korean celebrities play up their traditionally feminine features in order to appear more androgynous. G-Dragon, Hong-gi or Amber from Fx are all excellent examples of mainstream celebrities dedicated to androgyny. At first, I assumed these were examples of LGBT celebrities still hiding in the closet, but then I learned about “shipping”, “fan service” and the “boy love” community.

KPop label owners have created a paradigm of heteronormative advertising, boy groups are marketed towards women and girl groups are marketed towards men. Everything is planned and polished; from the stylists they work with to the type of music they produce is in an effort to please their target fan base. Fan service is a marketing concept where entertainment labels are combing blogs and trying to uncover what the “fandom” wants to see. The music labels encourage the artists to play into the erotic fetishes and desires of their young female audience.

In the early 70s, comics written by female fans for female fans started emerging in mainstream comic book stores in Japan and South Korea. According to the president of Central Park Media, “A lot of the lesbian imagery that we see in American pop culture is meant to tantalize male viewers. The opposite is true in Asia: A lot of the male homoeroticism is meant for a female audience and is written by females for females.” The comic books marketed towards young Asian women began to become more erotic and pornographic in nature, eventually in the 1990s an entire subgenre called “Boy love” entertainment was developed for young women focusing on the eroticization of gay male relationships.

The world of Tumblr (and social media in general), has connected many of these fans. They have created digital communities dedicated to different interests called “Fandoms”. “Shipping” short for “Relationship” is an internet concept where people become fans of relationships between celebrities. These can be real or imagined relationships. The world of “boy love” intersected with the world of Kpop and Jpop fandoms and we began to see homoerotic behaviors and androgynous style from straight Kpop artists in an effort to please the erotic fetishes of young Asian girls. A good example of this androgyny and boy love fan service is how the members of Super Junior or SHINee kiss on stage and touch each other provocatively in concert.

While marketing companies use eroticism of homosexuality and androgyny to sell albums and please fans, many of the Kpop Idols themselves do not see it as a queer fetishization. Siwon Choi for example is a member of Super Junior, arguably the most famous KPop band in the world. He has been notorious for his hypocrisy towards LGBT people. When he was approached asking if he would ever play a gay character he replied “While I respect all genders, I do not wish to acknowledge homosexuals as I have been taught that God created Man and Woman with specific characteristics and duties. I realize that with globalization, there are many [entertainers] who do not share my views. There are those who are value-oriented and those who are success-oriented. However shouldn’t an actor deliver an image to his audience through roles he chooses to portray, based on his beliefs in life?” At the same time, Siwon Choi engages in graphic boy love fan service, including stroking and kissing his male band members while shirtless on stage and making out with fellow band members. Essentially Choi, and other artists are claiming that their androgynous style and boy love fan service is acceptable because it’s driving sales of their albums and merchandise. However, if someone proclaims their identity as a queer person and engages in the same behaviors, the majority of Koreans would not support them.

What do you think? Is androgynous fashion cultural appropriation or a move towards a more gender ambiguous community? How do you feel about boy love fan service? Is it opening the doors to acceptance or creating an erotic caricature of gay relationships? Sound off in the comments below.

Meg Ten Eyck is a former LGBT rights activist, currently living in South Korea and traveling the world with her partner Lindsay. They write about their experiences as a queer couple on their blog Dopes on the Road and post their travel photos on Instagram @dopesontheroad.

SOURCE: posture mag

doesn't really say anything new or anything many of us haven't heard before, but this will never fail to not fascinate me.

Comments

[stoppedclock321.livejournal.com]

Okay, for real though, does anyone have receipts on the Siwon thing? It's one of the reasons I never particularly liked him or warmed up to him, but someone brought it up on another forum and a couple of generally level-headed fans debunked it and said there was no proof he ever said that. More tellingly, nobody else could prove that he did say it. So which is it? Because if it's not true and it's just people extrapolating based on the fact that he's religious, it's a pretty bad thing to keep spreading (especially since it's used as a pretty big point here).

[shintotchi.livejournal.com]

This seems to be the original article. As for how legit it is, I'm not sure. I just found/read it.

http://tyglobalist.org/in-the-magazine/theme/the-androgyny-revolution/#commentspost

edit: Seems like it's Yale's official undergrad international quarterly, which begs the question 'what was Shiwon doing talking to a Yale undergraduate? Even in 2007?' Shiwon's from an affluent family though, and he's well traveled though, so it's not too big of a stretch I guess. Regardless, it should be noted that he said these things about two years after they debuted, if my timeline is right. They debuted September 2005, and this came out December of 2007.

[jasmedra.livejournal.com]

This. I conducted some extensive internet research into this at one point, including reading the article that shintotchi cited above, and I've never found any satisfactory proof of Siwon's personal opposition to homosexuality. The Yale article in question doesn't appear to have an author, or any citations whatsoever, though apparently the publication's recent articles have both (accurate reporting and accountable journalism wasn't taught at Yale in 2007? I don't know). That's not to say I've found any definitive proof that Siwon is definitely *not* homophobic, but I'd like to give him and others the benefit of the doubt in such cases, until I learn otherwise. Unfortunately, like with many things, it seems that once something is out there on the internet, there's no stopping it from taking off and having a life of its own. I can only hope that anyone using the article as their evidence does also point out the possibility of questionable credibility, instead of simply stating it as absolute fact, as I wish this essay had done.

[staaan.livejournal.com]

idk about the quote but this (http://funnykpopstuff.tumblr.com/post/21157036491/fanboy-saranghae-siwon-no) was nagl

[shintotchi.livejournal.com]

Is androgynous fashion cultural appropriation or a move towards a more gender ambiguous community?

I think that's a huge stretch. How can androgynous fashion being cultural appropriation even be a thing?

Personally, I find skinship to be fine, so long as the member isn't visibly recoiling from it. If they aren't comfortable with skinship, then I don't want to see them doing it.

I think the boylove is a product of the fangirls. Rather than creating these caricatures of gay relationships, they are acting as a safety bubble. Seeing two idols together is alot better than having the threat of some unknown girl taking their idols' attention. If they make (for example) Shiwon belong to Heechul and vice versa, then there is never a threat for their oppas to look elsewhere. Idols and companies build it up to give their fans security, and get them into a tizzy.

All supporters of ships aren't like this, not at all. I just think it originated that way, and eventually became so integrated into kpop and jrock/jpop culture that it became accepted and normal. I also don't think all skinship is forced. Some idols may just be comfortable with it, and are sincerely close with their other members. So yeah, I don't mind it, and in fact, I like it.

Also Shiwon is deeply DEEPLY in that closet

[jrt131n.livejournal.com]

Man, siwon is so far in the closet he is sitting next to the lion and ice witch from narnia sitting back, having some tea and discussing politics.

[4minutesluts.livejournal.com]

kpop is superficially queer at best, nearly everything is just read into it by fans

[toshi830.livejournal.com]

yep.

[cagallisakura.livejournal.com]

there are certain pairings who i think are/went past just being best friends, namely taeyeon/tiffany and sunny/hyomin. some of the things those two ships did...oh man my shipper feels went through the fucking roof

[turdferguson.livejournal.com]

i would like to hear from koreans themselves what they think about gender performativity. skinship (backhugs, putting hands on legs/arms/thighs, etc) and aegyo don't seem to be considered gay stuff, it's fanservice and a show of affection. they're not embarrassed by it and they only do it to people they're close to. the issue here too is that we only see korea through the kpop lens, so what are regular dudes like and what are their attitudes toward skinship? that's what i wanna know, not this "look at these asian guys they're so....gay whats up with that, this is v exotic and different and i don't really understand it maybe it's appropriation"

[chelamasen.livejournal.com]

This is my main question too! I am really curious about skinship between non-idol/celeb Korean men (in Korea).

[brokecouture.livejournal.com]

i remember my cousin once coming across a search result saying that there was no such thing as a gay korean. i can't remember what in particular her search was about or why because it was a long time ago but that's something that stuck with me because it was so ... bizarre. there are a lot of things about "boy love", skinship and shipping in boy and girl groups that make me uncomfortable (obviously because it's used as a pandering device and the unhealthy mentality amongst certain extreme fans that happens). and obviously a lot if not most of it is superficial but i also think shipping, at least, is kind of normal? usually when you fall for a group as a whole, part of that adoration you feel is based on your attraction towards the groups dynamic. i think it's natural then, that shipping kind of sprouts out of the friendship or comradely (because let's face it, they're not all ~besties~) that they show. there are a lot of extremly delusional and unhealthy cons to that kind of fan culture though, and while i wouldn't go so far as to give it so much credit for opening the doors to acceptance of gay relationships, there's still all the erotic caricaturing that happens, i could say it could be seen as a little window in some ways.

also: is androgynous fashion cultural appropriation or a move towards a more gender ambiguous community?

seriously lol at considering androgyny cultural appropriation. that whole sentence bothers me but i guess she means well?? sometimes androgynous looks in kpop bother me, mostly when the person in question seems slightly uncomfortable with it. i also wouldn't say that it's something forced by the companies either. mostly i think more ~seasoned~ idols who are associated with androgynous looks dess that way because on some level .... they like to look that way and they're ok with being styled as such.

(i'm sleepy idek if any of this uber long comment is coherent)

[rocketjenny.livejournal.com]

Short answer: no

(I'm over queer-baiting and the likes)

[senshicalico.livejournal.com]

wow no shit

[waterincups.livejournal.com]

this raises a couple of red flags for me, because it comes off ethnocentric. from a western perspective, korean idols' androgynous looks and excessive skinship might come off gay, but it's really a matter of cultural differences. yeah, idols may play it up a bit from the average korean man, but korean men are generally allowed to be more androgynous and skinshipy than western men. it isn't fair to simply label the way idols are marketed as gay fetishization based on western notions of masculinity and femininity. plus, there's a problem with associating femininity (i.e. being physically close, having feminine features, characteristics that western people define as feminine) with queerness.

[modernelegance.livejournal.com]

MTE, thank you. I came in here to say this.

[phililen3.livejournal.com]

Is kissing and heavy petting sexual?
Is kissing and heavy petting between two men sexual?
Is kissing and heavy petting between two men sexual in SK?

Can anyone clue us in whether or not it is a publicly accepted thing for men to do this in SK...

I feel that if you as a male idol don't approve of any kind of sexual activity between two men, then you are a hypocrite for indulging in it or an imitation of it for any reason whatsoever.

[tsuyoi-hikari.livejournal.com]

From my understanding, kissing/heavy petting between guys are not normal in Korea. Skinship is a very normal things to do between guys like hugging, sleeping on each other's lap, touching, holding hands & etc.. All of this can be seen happening on everyday's life between guys if you live at Korea.

All those skinship you see K-pop idols do are consider normal but excessive fanservice like what Heechul did to his members (kissing them in concerts) are not consider normal behavior in Korea.

[bauci.livejournal.com]

How are things in China tho? It always surprised me how easily Tao adopted the whole skinship concept while other Chinese members (from other groups as well) have been more reserved.

[cococrazies.livejournal.com]

As far as I know, Chinese people are generally not very physically affectionate. Girls can be more skinship-y with close friends, going to the extent of holding hands, a lot of hugging, clinging, cuddling, petting, etc., but I don't know many who are, especially as they grow older. Guys, on the other hand, tend not to be more skinship-y than say, your average Western guy, if not less. At least that's my experience.

If you're talking about C-ent, though, I've no idea. I don't remember Fahrenheit being noteworthily skinship-y back in my stanning period of them in high school, but that was a while ago now. They're also Taiwanese and not mainland-Chinese, so there might be some cultural differences there.

[gray-fairy.livejournal.com]

As long the idols are comfortable with skinship in general and don't be hypocritical enough to pull a Siwon I don't think it's fetishizing gay/lesbian relationships. Even though there are lots of rumors that Siwon is actually homosexual and he just don't accept himself, which it's pretty sad then :/
And like the article has said, fangirls liking guy on guy action is not any different from straight dudes liking f/f. I think people just like to see two attractive people together, either if it's a heterosexual pairing, m/m or f/f, but straight girls/gay guys tend to prefer m/m while straight guys/gay women tend to prefer f/f simply for a matter of preference. I don't see it as anything offensive or fetishizing tbh.
how the members of Super Junior or SHINee kiss on stage and touch each other provocatively in concert
SHINee has never kissed on stage tho? Or I missed that? o_O

[shintotchi.livejournal.com]

You missed that Taemin Jonghyun action? It was pretty rude. >_>



Better cam

[petecarl.livejournal.com]

I'll trade all the fan service queerbaiting for actual representation and acceptance/support of LGBTQ+ people.

Androgynous fashion is not cultural appropriation of queer gender identity. Many people feel multiple ways toward their gender, and they express that through their fashion. Now, the marketing of androgyny for queerbaiting purposes is another story. But we also have to remember that we see the end result but not the discussion that lead to it. We don't know for sure how much dressing a certain way is just how an idol wants to dress and how much is the company saying 'wear this'.

TL;DR - probably not
idk if shipping really helps lead people to be more open to the acceptance of homosexuality. maybe for some people? but i also wonder how many people who ship are already okay with the idea of homosexuality. also, there are people who ship friendship but not the idea of two guys dating. i know when i was younger and getting mixed signals about homosexuality, to make shipping okay, i would tell myself that it was just the dynamics of the couple i liked - an exercise in theory of what sort of couple two people with those characteristics would create; course, though this was with fictional characters, not real people.

I'm really tired and have a cold, so I feel like I left important things out from this (like how cultural differences inform gender performance), but I can't think of them to put into words.

[cairistiona.livejournal.com]

"We don't know for sure how much dressing a certain way is just how an idol wants to dress and how much is the company saying 'wear this'."

This is very true. We know that some people, like Amber, choose the way they dress (on the other hand Amber always says that Sulli is a tomboy and would prefer to dress like her, but didn't get the same choices until Red Light, which she helped style), versus Jiyoon when she debuted--though she's since settled into her stage personality--, a couple of the girls in G.I. (who hated that they had to cut their hair for the band), and a few other girls who were forced into the role of tomboy by their agencies and cried over feeling "ugly" because of it.

[chimpansee.livejournal.com]

The whole 'shipping' culture in kpop fandom has absolutely nothing to do with actual homosexuality (in fact, some of the crazy shippers would become angry at the mere mention of the possibility that their precious oppas might be gay) and the LGBT community isn't helped by it at all.

[shineericeball.livejournal.com]

Couldn't agree more. To me, it seems to make gay relationships more of a fantasy so people can say "it's not real, it's just something idols do" and avoid addressing any kind of LGBT issues in South Korea at all. I think a lot of the more extreme shipping fans probably would reject their favourite groups if they found out the members really were gay which is very sad.

[e-bone (from livejournal.com)]

I think it's definitely being used as a marketing tool (hell some subunits/projects seem greenlit based on the popularity of certain ships) but I do think that the "queer" aspect of the industry does allow kids who are queer and/or questioning the room to explore... which sounds a bit creepy but the I've always felt that the performative aspect has provided them with a veil (and most companies are likely actively covering up gay rumors). So while I can't call it an intentional push toward acceptance, I think the public becoming more accustomed to these images is inevitable. Also with fairly popular idols expressing public support for the queer community, I do believe the idols themselves are facilitating these changes, if anyone.

So sorry if none of that made sense; it's early...

[jasmedra.livejournal.com]

Nope, this definitely makes sense to me. I agree that Korean entertainment companies and entertainers know what the fans want, and use it to further promote themselves, with skinship and other acts of fanservice. I also agree that while these acts (not "androgynous fashion" - that's a whole other issue) might be an appropriation of queer culture, they do have the side-effect of creating more public exposure (and discussion, as is evidenced by this essay itself) that will hopefully lead to a greater tolerance and understanding of the LGBTQ community, despite the fact that the acts themselves are not representative of the community. I'd also like to point out that the debate of queer culture appropriation is not limited to K-Pop (Lady Gaga, anyone?).

[torontok.livejournal.com]

Is androgynous fashion cultural appropriation
someone needs to pull out the sociology dictionary and re-read this definition.

[jeliza]

I'm not over-impressed with the article, but the author is a lesbian. Actually, given her background, I really would expect her to do better, though I think the biggest issue is her assumption that becasue something looks queer to her Western eyes, it looks queer to Koreans.

[lexissexist.livejournal.com]

C+ 102-level paper.

[digitalqueen.livejournal.com]

the only positive things i can remember from kpop groups are jjong's letter to that trans woman and snsd including trans women/drag queens into their love&girls video, idk if that counts since it was for jpn promotions tho.

i think amber not adhering to the feminine image that is expected from her is pretty important too.

[tempestdance.livejournal.com]

jesus, they're always talking about the shipping culture in kpop and make it out to be some unique, twisted thing that only exists in the mysterious land of the east but like, have they been to sherlock tag on tumblr?
"boy love" or "shipping" culture has been going on for decades, and it's definitely more universal that you'd think.

[fantaesticbaby.livejournal.com]

i had no idea abortion wasn't legal in sk. that's.... awful

[anconeous.livejournal.com]

It's not legal in my country (Philippines) either. :| People like me in the medical profession see so many botched illegal abortions and it's horrible to see them going to these seedy places and not getting proper care.